04-22-2007, 03:34 PM | #321 | |
Elf Lord
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Think of me as a brat.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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04-22-2007, 04:08 PM | #322 | |
Elf Lord
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I thought you were serious . . . my bad .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-22-2007 at 04:10 PM. |
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05-20-2007, 02:54 AM | #323 | |||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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This year, my political and religious views have been undergoing some radical changes. There are so, so many different aspects of society that we just take for granted, so many assumptions that other people in other cultures have grown up without. I'm seriously questioning a number of our basic assumptions, trying to figure out what makes the most sense.
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And in view of the horrifying ruin that modern society is making for itself, I see the past as having been far superior. Quote:
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Insidious sent me a good post though, so I'll certainly respond. Quote:
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Here's my perspective on it. There was a doctor and a patient. The doctor took a broad variety of his drugs, took the labels off, and then put them down on a table in front of a patient. He then said, "I'm the doctor. But you should do what makes you feel happy. Choose the one that you want to choose, in order to take care of yourself. Hopefully you'll get the right one." The doctor is the state, and the patient is society. If the state closes down the options to destructive activities, such as drugs and crime, society will consequently benefit. If the state allows those, the result will be worse for all concerned. By the doctor's taking the labels off, I presume that it knows in advance what is good for the patient and what is not. The doctor has the expertise. In the same way, we have all received knowledge from God as to what the truth is, and as to what is best for society. Our state has refused to implement the true religion, however. It has thus taken the labels off the drugs. It also has not done its job in giving the patient what he needs to be healthy. Things that are clearly evil, the state has legalized. The doctor has given the patient a host of destructive potions to select from, with one or two good ones in there too. The result has been catastrophe for many. Some people in society choose the right religion, but there are a massive tide of evil ideologies that now lure people down destructive paths. Most people are taking those paths. The tide is incredibly dense and is horrifying. What we can now see explains why, in Old Testament Israel, only the true religion was allowed under law. That was necessary for the protection of society. It didn't fully work then either, just as it hasn't fully worked in the Christian kingdoms, but it sure helped. Now the tide of destruction and sin is endless because the last restraints have been removed, and society is walking down a road that must lead inevitably to its decimation. There's a fragment of my incredibly bleak view. I think that we experienced an incredible gift and blessing, throughout the time of the Christian kingdoms. That era is tragically over, and we have chosen a nightmare instead. Quote:
But society can at least enact just laws and behave in an upright, moral fashion. That's what I want. You know that criminal behavior would not exist if ideologies did not first exist in the criminals that justified it. For example, a chap might be very poor. He might say to himself, "there's that woman with a fancy, jeweled necklace. Will she go without food if I steal it? No. She'll be just fine. But I am poor. I deserve the money more than she does- there's no equality here." That ideology justifies the action for him, so he engages in that action. The ideology precedes and creates the action. Sometimes, a desire can cause someone to seize upon an ideology that matches it purely out of selfishness. In such a case, desire precedes ideology. This implies that the person did not already have a sufficient set of values to begin with, however. Instill a good values system in society, and you'll cut the crime rate. But that denies freedom of speech and freedom of religion to a certain extent- that's the problem. My current thinking is that even though it's impossible to make someone else believe in a true way, at least laws can be made that prevent him spreading his destructive ideology. But I'm rather unsure on this point. I'm still debating it. And I think there's more to this picture still, that I'm presently not seeing. Quote:
But also, you were saying that we should be allowed to do these various IMO immoral activities because they are natural instincts for us. I was pointing out that the fact that they're natural for us doesn't mean they should be allowed, for many things that are natural for us must be repressed, if we are to have a peaceful and functional society. Quote:
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As for dictatorship, I don't know. I'm still pondering whether that, monarchy, democracy or theocracy is better. Or whether the differences really matter. You see, I don’t think it makes sense for there to be a government by the people, for the people. It makes more sense that it should be by God, for God. For God is love, and his will is righteous and just. If society is for God and by God, every single person in it will benefit incredibly from God’s leadership and from the society’s holy purpose. I believe that one can see the proof that this works in practice across the history of the times when Christianity dominated the world. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-20-2007 at 12:15 PM. |
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05-20-2007, 09:43 AM | #324 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
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In this case
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If your theory was correct, as to the impact of 'good values' on criminal behavior, though, wouldn't we be seeing better behavior from prominent evangelists and religious leaders? Yet we notice that despite daily exposure to The Word of God, they're engaging in all 7 of the Deadly Sins on a routine basis. Until you have a political/educational solution for that problem, I'll keep on assuming that the key to 'what makes a man/woman righteous' isn't solvable by political means. The trouble with the 'doctor' analogy is that, in a democracy, the 'doctor' is the citizen, and the state is the patient. You can't reverse that and still have THIS country. And if you want a different country, well, the world's a big place. We live (missing Jersey Devil, here, for a minute) in a federalist democracy. That's not compatible with what you're proposing. The legal system we use presumes innocence. The Christian faith (as most people in fundamentalist circles see it) presumes sin. That's a pretty sizable gulf to cross.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May Last edited by sisterandcousinandaunt : 05-20-2007 at 09:51 AM. |
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05-20-2007, 12:02 PM | #325 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Also, there have been many, many observed instances where religion has made a huge impact upon crime and people's behavior patterns. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-20-2007 at 12:10 PM. |
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05-20-2007, 03:11 PM | #326 | |
Elf Lord
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How DARE you be so arrogant as to choose that path for me? I have had relatives fight (and sometimes die) in every war this country has ever fielded, from the Revolution on down, and they did that to protect the liberties that are inalienable and guaranteed by the Constitution. And you say, "Naw, we'll toss those out." I assure you, we'll continue to fight to protect them. Establish your theocracy somewhere else.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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05-20-2007, 05:20 PM | #327 |
Sapling
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Sister:
As a Catholic myself, I wanted to let you know that the Church is in agreement with you on this subject. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 2106 "Nobody may be forced to act against his convictions, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience in religious matters in private or in public, alone or in association with others, within due limits." This right is based on the very nature of the human person, whose dignity enables him freely to assent to the divine truth which transcends the temporal power. For this reason it "continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking truth and adhering to it." It could indeed be a better world if more people were continuously sanctified by the Body and Blood of Our Lord, but even if everyone in the world were Christian, we'd still be an imperfect world as a fallen race. Besides, the will to dominate other people sounds more like Sauron than Jesus. Jesus gives people the choice to embrace or reject him. |
05-20-2007, 05:21 PM | #328 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-21-2007, 12:39 AM | #329 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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If everything is predetermined, that doesn't mean we don't have to do anything. From our perspectives, we still have choices to make and responsibility we're accountable for.
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I do have "the will to dominate other people" in the same sense you do: We need a government that establishes just laws, for the benefit of society. Our disagreement lies in our different views about which laws are just and which unjust. Quote:
The "due limits," I presume, mean that when a religious belief translates into unlawful behavior, it should be restrained by force of law. I tend to agree with that. I just have a broader perspective on what is destructive behavior than our law, as it currently stands, does. And I believe that unbelief is always going to translate into unlawful, dangerous, destructive behavior, so even if the people disagree with Christianity, they shouldn't be allowed to spread their wrong ideologies, because those ideologies spawn evil actions that will destroy people. And our leaders should all be Christian . . . There are some questions on these issues, their extent and such, that I'm still debating with myself. The question of freedom to choose Christ is a very important issue to me. I rather like the way that the North American Puritans dealt with it. They didn't make people convert to Christianity, but they imposed Christian morality in law. That meant people were free to be Christian or not, but they couldn't do wrong things. That way of setting things up seems to be pretty good to me, though I'm still waffling. I favor strong limits on freedom of speech and the virtual elimination of freedom of religion, because of the terribly negative social repercussions they create. It's an interesting world. Looking at it as I currently am, it just never ceases to fascinate me. We all grow up entirely enmeshed in the culture we live in. We are infiltrated on such a deeply fundamental level by the values and ideas of our cultures that it really, deeply impresses me. I'm fighting like a wildcat to get out of the overwhelming and basic biases of our time period and thinking, for they exist as powerfully in modern cultures as they do in all other cultures, including ancient cultures, and the fact that our bias is our bias doesn't make it the right bias. I think it's clear from history that society doesn't always evolve for the better. I want to look at history and at the world scene from a perspective that breaks through the thick foliage at the top of the forest, through those branches and dense leaves and twigs. I'm slamming my head against that rooftop of modern biases right now, not really outside of them yet, but striving to get out of them. I'm trying to see from a perspective that is exterior to our society rather than interior to it. What I'm seeing is deeply, deeply interesting to me. The way history works together and functions to carry out God's plan, and the way it develops and unfolds is truly remarkable. It is amazing, natural, and strictly controlled by God. And what I think I'm seeing may all be wrong, sure. The world is a very, very amazing place. Quote:
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Most people disagree to some extent with some of the laws that exist, whether it's abortion on the right or the Patriot Act on the left. Everyone who votes has the right and responsibility to choose the path for themselves and for other people that they think is right. So, my "choosing a path" for you and society shouldn't be considered a problem. Quote:
We don't have enough common ground to even begin to reach an agreement. My only hope is that I could at least get people to understand my perspective, even if they disagree with it. But I'm not overly concerned with doing that, here, because I have a lazy feeling that it's pointless.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-21-2007, 09:40 AM | #330 |
Elf Lord
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Okay. Leaving aside the political realm for a moment, because if you're old enough to vote, presumably you do so.
Other than that, and your "laziness" in spreading the Word here, in what way does your "Christianity in Truth" (as opposed to everyone else who's a damned heathen), impact the real world? Show us the money. Show the board you lecture how you are a significantly better person because your personal relationship with Christ is all that. I don't need references and websites, for this I'll take your word, so "Worked 23 hours at the soup kitchen this week. Read to children in the oncology ward Saturday." will be fine. I've known people who are better people because of their faith. You ain't made my list yet. So. Here's your chance. If God works through you, what does He do, other than reject history back to before the Renaissance.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May Last edited by sisterandcousinandaunt : 05-21-2007 at 10:03 AM. |
05-21-2007, 11:01 AM | #331 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Those who hold particularly strong religious beliefs, on the other hand, already know the outcomes they want to achieve, whether or not a majority of the population agrees with those outcomes. The question changes from, "what works for the majority?" to "how do we convince the majority that our way is correct?" And, I'd point out that, for all the positive points of orthodox christianity, some of the negatives have caused it to fail as a basis for a political system in the past. So much so, that it is no longer the dominant political force in any major nation. Though it is still a strong minority force in many.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-21-2007, 12:00 PM | #332 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-21-2007, 12:02 PM | #333 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-21-2007, 12:26 PM | #334 | |
Elf Lord
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As is the tendency to restrict rule-making to a pretty narrow clique of insiders. However, IMO theocratic rules are far more likely to be immutable in the face of evidence that they don't work. e.g. when the CDC started to notice that abstinence-only programmes didn't work as well as other types of programme for preventing STDs, the Bush admin ordered them to stop looking, rather than changing the policy. Interestingly, in some instances, I think theocratic laws can make politics easier for people to relate to because they can relate to the religious principles directly without first having to get to grips with all sorts of muddy issues around practicalities and consequences. I think this, in part, explains the success of the Islamic Revolution in Iran and the rise of the Religious Right in the US. Last edited by The Gaffer : 05-21-2007 at 12:27 PM. |
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05-21-2007, 02:35 PM | #335 | ||||||||
Quasi Evil
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Now if you DON’T want a Christian theocracy where the bible is the word of the law then please tell us what you have in mind exactly… Quote:
Remember, the founding fathers themselves understood that these and other “unalienable” rights were “self evident” and endowed BY A CREATOR as such! So I find it ironic that you reject these fundamental notions of freedom and liberty based on the warped logic that they are counter to the way our country was founded when in fact that’s clearly wrong. Puritans didn’t found the United States of America (In fact, the Puritan "revolution" in England was a total failure and was replaced by the Restoration). God fearing white men who found all forms of tyranny (be they religious or secular) unacceptable founded this country. And they would find your notion of establishing a kind of Christian authoritarian state to be both unpalatable and counter to everything they believed in and worked for. And they would most definitely fight your attempt to reduce our society to such an unacceptable state by any means necessary as they did under a previous tyranny… Lief if you want your society to be one controlled and choked by a Christian fundamentalism then go find an island somewhere where everyone can live under your extremist ideology and leave the constitution alone. You have no right to impose that belief system on those who reject it from the start anymore then I have a right to force jews into ovens because I believe its for the best of society because my holy book tells me so… You could of course also raise arms and attempt a revolution here in the name of your god and your twisted logic as to the betterment of society. And Im sure you could learn some things from say Iran that you could find useful in this engagement… Even from the former Soviet Union… Because as far as Im concerned a religious dictatorship is the same as a secular dictatorship. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-21-2007, 02:37 PM | #336 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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And notice that I italicized orthodox. Many, in fact, probably a majority, of the religious in the US are willing to look past strict adherence to scripture for what seems to work for society. But the orthodox, which is how I would classify Lief, believe that scripture trumps all. They will never go against scripture, no matter what evidence is presented to them. The best you can hope for, in their case, is to attempt to persuade them that their interpretation of their own scripture is inaccurate as applied to a given situation. Basically, to the secular, you argue a situation on it's own merits. To the orthodox, while you might argue a situation on it's own merits, how it ties in with a given book of scripture is also essential. If it seems okay in the real world, but doesn't mesh with scripture, it's wrong.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-21-2007, 03:18 PM | #337 | |
Elf Lord
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I know about cults, and I've heard these stories before. I don't know if Lief is his own one man cult, or if there's a little nest of them somewhere, but the trend of his recent conversation is cultish, not "Christian." I don't need to see people of faith defamed by this lunacy.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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05-21-2007, 04:48 PM | #338 | |
Elf Lord
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Thankfully they're definitely in the majority over here. Churches here tend to campaign on issues like poverty, climate change and nuclear disarmament rather than abortion and gay marriage. I guess the Anglican church has kinda made a virtue out of fudging certain issues. Unfortunately it is slowly being pulled apart by the anti-gay brigage. Last edited by The Gaffer : 05-21-2007 at 04:50 PM. |
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05-21-2007, 05:26 PM | #339 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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Insidious Rex, reading your post, I think we've gone as far as we're going to be able to go in discussing this.
There's just one point on which I'd like to clarify my views. Quote:
The Old Testament supports my conclusions very clearly, though. It is more focused upon what laws are just for societies, or at least for Israel, whereas the New Testament focuses more on the individual. My main point is that I don't believe in conquering a nation in the name of Christ. I don't think that that is Christian at all. However, maintaining purity in a nation that has devoted itself to God is a different matter. Quote:
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And I'll mention that the reason I wouldn't accept the evidence you provide is because it's overwhelmed, in my opinion, by the evidence supporting the literal accuracy of the Bible. Quote:
One of the difficulties of modern secularism is that folks have been willing to throw Christianity out of law before checking out what the results would be and before conducting the tests you advocate. As a result, a lot of people, particularly at the time of the Enlightenment but also since then (another major, horrible turning point in history came directly after WW2), got used to certain behaviors that according to Christians are immoral, and enjoyed them. And then bias set in. Once you get used to something, you don't want to stop. So now studies are pouring in that show the negative consequences Christianity would predict for those behaviors and ideologies, but the beliefs are too ingrained to be easily changed. So the question for secularists too is not one of "trial and error and real world testing." I believe that that's a lie that many people hold dear. Instead, the question for them is what suits them. And Christianity is assumed to be wrong. That's where the whole Enlightenment and anti-Victorianism outlooks come in. And because Christianity is assumed to be wrong, people keep jumping ahead and enacting laws without knowledge of what the results will be. This recent rush to legalize homosexual marriage without the studies that will show it's safe is a case in point. The legalization of sexual promiscuity and homosexuality itself, without the evidence to show that either were safe, was another case in point. And according to BBC, we've seen the negative repercussions for sexual promiscuity, and according to inked's article, we're now getting a better idea of what homosexuality produces too. And those results aren't good. For Christians, the outcomes are pre-determined because, based upon the Bible, we already believe we know what works. And looking at now the evidence available that shows the repercussions of modern immorality, we can see that the Christians from the past were correct in their Biblical outlook. Quote:
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But it's not the system that was the problem.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-21-2007, 05:51 PM | #340 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Why do you start with the Enlightenment? Your POV predates the Renaissance. It hasn't been current since then.
*checks off that Lief's individual form of Christianity enables him to posture in many locations, despite feedback he's obnoxious* Yeah. That's the example Jesus set. @@
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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