03-29-2006, 03:07 AM | #321 | |
Spaceman Spiff
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This is by far the best religious discusion I've ever had. I've had many, they usually start after a few drinks, and end with someone very angry.
You guys are awesome! Quote:
I don't deny that some of the things in the bible are, indeed, fact. There was a man named Joshua ben Joseph(hope I spelled that right) who became known as Jesus. There was a prophecy that a person of jewish decent would come and lead the Isrealites(again I hope I spelled that right, my spelling is terrible) out of "the dark times". This was Jesus. Did he really heal the sick as it is said? Maybe. The mind is very powerfull. If you believe something so strongly, say that you are getting sick, your mind can cause this. If this ill person thought strongly enough that the person standing before them was powerefull enough to heal them, the mind can , and will, then do it. Did he really walk on water? Doubtfull. Did he change water into wine? Probably, but any amateur with a majic kit can do this. I know these are but a few of the things he did, and the most known, but if we are to believe them all, how can we? When so many can easily be explained by the power of the mind and slight of hand? I know that is arguable that the mind thing is "Gods work" but it's still hard for me to accept that.
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03-29-2006, 03:10 AM | #322 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yay!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-29-2006, 03:30 AM | #323 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Also, what to you would look artistic in the paint spill might look to a large number of other people like just a mess. The universe, on the other hand, is almost universally seen to be beautiful. And that should seem rather odd. Furthermore, the universe is also far, far more complex than the paint spill. It wouldn't take many variables coming out differently to keep it from looking beautiful. This also is a major contributor to the oddness that it should be artistic. Quote:
Another question. If we have no value and no worth, why is it bad for us to abuse one another? And what's wrong with slavery? I mean, honestly. If slaves had no worth and no value, one should be able to just work them to death and that's it. They're just like machines, after all, if they have no value. Quote:
For myself, I think the world is divided up entirely between white and black. I don't believe in any "gray area." However, I do believe that us humans are so limited in our ability to see that often things look like gray to us. They aren't really gray, but they look that way. Quote:
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Now of course, you could argue that the fence had coincidentally been turned on right between myself and my grandfather touching the fence. Though that still ignores the fact that my grandfather had been positive it was on already. This view demands a major coincidence of the highest order, plus a mistake on my grandfather's part, and also an oddity in the fence's being turned on, but oh well. You can think of it as coincidence if that seems most likely to you. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-29-2006 at 03:31 AM. |
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03-29-2006, 03:32 AM | #324 | ||||
Elf Lord
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And I know you're going to ask, "perhaps because they're looking for it?" And that probably is part of the answer. But it doesn't explain bizarre flukes like the ones I've mentioned, which often occur around the same people. People who have the gift of prophecy keep having prophecies come true. People who have the gift of miracles keep having more and more miracles occurring around them. As an example, let me point to a major Christian minister named Brother Andrew. He spent many years of his life smuggling Bibles illegally into the Communist Soviet Union. God looked after him in his efforts. Brother Andrew learned that he must trust in God rather than his own wits in hiding the Bibles, so to prove that he was trusting in God rather than his own ingenuity, he always put a small stack of Bibles on the front seat right next to him, in plain sight of the border patrols. Other Christians who worked with him did the same, and they kept getting through. Coincidence? Perhaps bad border patrols, you might argue. But the coincidences kept happening, and happening, and happening. Eventually, the coincidence just gets unbelievable. The odds! God is a very rational explanation for why the coincidences tail religious folk. Quote:
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For example: One of my strongest ever experiences of feeling the Lord's presence was while I was sitting on a bench in my garden. I was thinking to myself about the experience people talked about of just being caught up into indescribable bliss, of being set "on fire" by the Holy Spirit. I was thinking very skeptically about it at that moment. I was thinking, "it's so extreme what they're saying, but also so . . . unlikely. So implausible. I'm not positive I really believe in that." And then as soon as those thoughts crossed my mind (and I wasn't trying to meditate, I was just thinking doubtfully and skeptically about the experience people claimed to have had), I was caught up in a second into that experience. It was so powerful, so overwhelming that I was actually physically weeping with the waves of bliss and the feeling of divine fire burning in me. It was an utterly overcoming experience. It came as a total shock. It also came while I was fully mentally present, not relaxing but sitting on a hard bench thinking critically and fully conscious and in my right mind. You could of course claim that I was secretly wanting that experience and that's why it came, but not everyone gets what they want. Many times since then I have prayed and sought such an experience far more strongly than I subconsciously might have been at that moment, but it didn't come when I wanted it to. Also when I had the experience, I was not in a meditative state. I was actually doubting the experience's existence, and that doesn't make it likely that it could just come. Finally, when I had the experience I was absolutely certain that it was impossible for my own mind to have conjured up something of that extremity. It was that powerful and overcoming. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-29-2006, 03:35 AM | #325 |
Elf Lord
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I must go and make myself unconscious now. I won't read your second post until tomorrow Bombadillo, lest I stay up another hour or two! I'll respond to your second post and Faramir's post then.
*Faints from exhaustion.*
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-29-2006, 03:41 AM | #326 | |
Spaceman Spiff
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03-29-2006, 01:30 PM | #327 | |||
Elf Lord
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But if you don't believe in any God, humanity is all you have left. So putting your faith in humanity makes sense. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-29-2006, 01:48 PM | #328 |
Elf Lord
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Speaking of the universe's beauty!
An article from BBC News:
World marvels at total eclipse The total eclipse of the Sun finished its journey across the globe at 1148 GMT (1248 BST) in sunset along Mongolia's northern border. Skywatchers around the world marvelled as they caught a glimpse of the "ultimate astronomical show". As the spectacle passed overhead, witnesses prayed, cheered and clapped. The eclipse took just over three hours to sweep a narrow corridor across the world, crossing Africa, Turkey and Central Asia. 'The most amazing sight' The Moon's umbral shadow first touched down on Earth at 0836 GMT (0936 BST) at sunrise on the east coast of Brazil. It then raced across the Atlantic Ocean before making African landfall in Ghana at 0908 GMT (1008 BST), where residents of the capital Accra filled the streets to view the event. As the temperature dropped and the sky darkened the crowd looked skywards and shouted and clapped as the eclipse swept above. An eclipse watcher in the capital said it was "the most amazing sight" and "a must see experience".
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-29-2006, 02:07 PM | #329 |
Spaceman Spiff
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I wish I couldve seen it. Oh, but I can make one of my own.
*runs off to change avvie*
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03-29-2006, 02:11 PM | #330 |
Elf Lord
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Cool avatar! Nice .
By the way, I'm replying to your questions right now as we speak . . .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-29-2006, 02:14 PM | #331 | |
Spaceman Spiff
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03-29-2006, 02:45 PM | #332 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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03-29-2006, 02:48 PM | #333 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45792
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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03-29-2006, 02:48 PM | #334 | |
Spaceman Spiff
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03-29-2006, 03:16 PM | #335 | |||
Elf Lord
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We also can see that the manuscripts weren't intended just to be stories because of the fact that so many of the details of the Old Testament check out as historically accurate. Historical research has proven that King David existed and was a major ruler in Israel's history who greatly strengthened his nation. Large parts of the Old Testament corroborate in precise detail with Assyrian records available from those times. Some parts of the Old Testament accounts from before Solomon are disputed, but as historical research progresses, more and more verification of the Old Testament has been found. For example, the Hittites were long cited as an example of the Old Testament being flawed. The Old Testament describes the Hittites as a major nation, and aside from the Old Testament, there was no record of them available to us. So people said the Old Testament plainly was wrong. However, since then researchers uncovered loads of evidence about the Hittites and now there are whole books on them. The Old Testament was proven to be accurate in this. So things keep coming up. For those parts of the Old Testament that are still disputed, there is always hope that the conflicts will be resolved. Of course, most of the mythological type stories such as David & Goliath and Jonah & the Whale aren't possible to verify or refute. I accept them as literal for the following reasons: 1) Personal experience of knowing God has proven to me that he exists and is still active in the way described in the Bible. 2) God has proven to me through personal experience of his working through the Bible and testifying about it that the Bible is his Word. 3) Now assuming that the Bible is God's word, I am left only with the question of how to interpret it. If I do not interpret the Bible literally but interpret it in other ways, I can come up with any interpretation I like and then it's no longer the Bible anymore. It's me making up my own theology. Therefore the Bible must be interpreted literally. Quote:
I've talked about the Old Testament so far. Now I'll talk about the New Testament. There are several key details about those books that are very strong indicators that the books were intended to be accurate historical accounts. First is the fact that scholars have dated the Gospels at between 50 and 70 AD. Jesus was killed sometime between 32 and 36 AD. That means that the gospels were written during the lifespan of a lot of the people that were actually present during Jesus' life. The disciples couldn't have been making things up, because they were initially preaching to the Israelis, and they couldn't go and tell the Israelis alterred accounts of history when the Israelis themselves had already been around Jesus and knew the facts. The Pharisees also would have been looking for any opportunity to undermine the disciples' message, so the disciples would have had to stick to the facts. The fact that the Gospels were presented in this context is really important, for they couldn't go and preach that things had occurred to people who knew from personal experience that those things had not occurred and while Pharisees were lurking around with every motive to find a loophole through which to shoot down their message. Another relevant fact is that we have records from the Pharisees' writings of the time which accuse Jesus of having been a sorcerer who practiced black magic. The Pharisees had every motive to deny Jesus' miracles, but the fact that they accused him of practicing black magic proves that even they were convinced he was involved in the supernatural. There also are writings from major historians of the time like Tacitus and Josephus that corroborate parts of the New Testament about Jesus' life and ministry. Now from the Gospels themselves, there are some more details that point to historical accuracy. 1) The disciples are painted like idiots. Perhaps that's too strong a word, but they're always making mistakes, always are confused and never are understanding what Jesus is trying to teach them in the New Testament. At the time the Gospels were written, these were the leaders of the Christian movement. You don't paint your leaders like that. 2) Jesus makes no mention in the Gospels of circumcision. At the time the Gospels were written, circumcision was a major, major issue. It was dividing many Jewish Christians from the Apostle Paul and other church leaders. The church was very split over the issue, and if Jesus had said something about the issue, that would have been very helpful in resolving the dispute. If the Gospel writers were trying to put anything in the Gospels other than exact history, they would have probably put some statement into Jesus' mouth about circumcision. 3) The first witnesses of Jesus' resurrection were women. Women's testimony in the time of Jesus was considered to be worthless by the Jewish community. The fact that in their accounts the Gospel writers presented women as being the first witnesses of the resurrection instead of Peter or some of the other disciples would have been considered a weakness in the time the Gospels were written. 4) There also are words taken down in the New Testament that it might have been easier to leave out. For example, according to the Gospels, Jesus while hanging on the cross cried out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Such a phrase might be interpreted as despair. Us Christians have a different interpretation of it, but it might have been easier to leave out such a cry altogether. So there are a number of reasons that the New Testament should be considered a historically reliable account, or at least an account written with the greatest effort at historical accuracy. In the Gospel of Luke, Luke introduced his work to someone who I think was his cousin, a man named Theophilus, by stating that he had researched all the facts very carefully and was presenting his information so that Theophilus could hear a clear and orderly account of all the things he was hearing about by word of mouth. There are other reasons for thinking the Gospel accounts are credible historical sources as well. The disciples and early Christians were devoted to Jesus' teachings to the point of giving up their lives for what they believed was true and right, and Jesus' teachings demanded extreme ethics. Jesus attacked even sinful thoughts as well as sinful actions. He demanded total transformation, and then he promised and delivered the Holy Spirit so that people could experience that transformation. He wasn't content with people being 99% of the way good, either, for to him no wrongdoing was acceptable. He said, "be perfect, as my Father in heaven is perfect." That the disciples who spoke the message recorded in the Gospels clung to these extreme ethical teachings and gave up their lives for their beliefs is a strong indicator that their message is credible. So the Bible is a credible source of information. And while the seemingly mythological occurrences of the Old Testament are impossible to verify or disprove, the miracles from the New Testament are strongly supported. Quote:
I don't know if you've ever read the Book of Acts? Because that is an account of what Christians call a "revival." There have been many, many revivals in the time of the Church, and often these are accompanied by astounding miraculous signs. My grandmother, the one through whom the Lord healed the woman with the walker, has also witnessed a miracle that commonly occurred in the 1980s. In that time, it was commonplace for people to receive healing for leg or foot deformities. People who had legs of different lengths and thus a walking disadvantage would receive healing and their short leg would actually grow before everyone's eyes out a couple inches to match the other leg. My sister received a dream from the Lord in which he gave her the gift of healing, and then she went and prayed over my mother's foot, which had been causing her pain for years and severely limiting her ability to walk. My mother was immediately completely healed and has had no foot trouble since. There are many Christian accounts of miracles I could go into. Resurrections from the dead . . . one man who was resurrected from the dead had been certified dead by medical examiners. His death certificate was written up and everything. His wife believed God wanted him resurrected though, and so she took him to a church where many strong believers were praying, and there he was resurrected. And his return from the dead was actually caught on video tape. I read a book where I saw a photograph of him holding his own death certificate- quite a testimony. The only "scientific" conclusion, of course, would be that his doctors were wrong. That's quite a leap- these are registered, skilled medical examiners we're talking about, but if you feel that's most likely you can believe that. But there are many other resurrection stories. And the healings go on and on. And there are also many prophets who have heard hundreds of words from the Lord and seen them come true. An example . . . I can think of lots of neat prophecies that have been fulfilled off the top of my head, but few of them are really, really convincing, something indisputably from God. Let's see . . . Oh, here's an interesting one. I don't know about "indisputable", but it is interesting. Shortly before entering into a winter Math Statistics class, I had a dream from the Lord about the class. In my dream I saw my professor. In my dream he was of Arab descent, in his thirties, with black hair and beard and a rather distinctive face. He was lecturing to us, but in his lecture he was trying to build himself up, sometimes at other people's expense. He cared mainly about himself and was willing to tear down his students. When I entered the class, the professor was physically exactly the same as the person I'd seen in my dream. His age, his height, his face, all his physical appearance was totally recognizable as exactly the same. It was as though the dream had given a photograph of him. I had never seen the man before that day, but he was exactly the same. Earlier on in the semester, it didn't seem as though the rest of the dream would be fulfilled. He didn't seem unkind to us students at all. He was nice and easy-going. However, I did begin to recognize that he seemed to have a rather low self esteem. As the semester progressed, he did become nasty. Not to me, but to a different student. She had asked a rather dumb question, so he pointed her out in class by making her raise her hand and criticized her, saying he wouldn't answer such a dumb question, and then when the discussion was over he began to talk about her behind her back to other students, criticizing her further. I think his behavior was because of his low self esteem. These events and his physical appearance were precisely in accord with my dream of a man I'd never seen before in my life. So that's one example. There are others. I had a dream also of the war in Iraq, before we entered into it. In my dream, I saw a woman being abused and then thrown down to be raped. Then a soldier came forward to save her, and he cut down her oppressors. However, he overextended himself and began to very slowly fall forward. Someone cut him down from behind. However, a different soldier came up and cut down that person. In the dream, I asked, "what does this dream mean?" And I heard a voice answer, "this is the struggle in Iraq." After that dream, I was unsure for a while whether the voice had said Afghanistan or Iraq; I couldn't remember quite well enough. But now I'm postive it was Iraq. The interpretation is simple, too. The abused woman was the Iraqi people. The soldier who came forward to rescue her was the US army. We defeated the initial force easily, but now one could argue that we are overextended and being undercut by the insurgency. However, in the dream a new force rose up that defeated the insurgency. I now have high hopes that this is the Iraqi army. Anyway, there are other prophecies other Christians have had who are closer than I to the Lord and more mature in their walks with him, and many of their prophecies are much more interesting than these examples of prophecies I've personally been given. I could refer to them, and they really would be indisputable. Sorry for keeping you waiting so long for my response! I hope it's worth the wait.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-29-2006 at 03:27 PM. |
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03-29-2006, 03:26 PM | #336 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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But anyway, just a minor question: if I recall, you were a follower of the theory of evolution (understood in a Christian sense); is that correct? If so, then why do you not take Gen. 1 literally in the same way that you take Jonas literally? Quote:
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03-29-2006, 03:50 PM | #337 | ||||
Elf Lord
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As you say though, it is another discussion, and a very, very longwinded one, as I recall from last time . Quote:
According to the Genesis 1 account, man was created on the 6th day, after all the other major creation periods were over except the day of rest. Therefore man would not have been a personal witness of God creating. He could only have known about the seven days from God telling him. And how does God often talk to people? Through dreams and visions, symbolic language. Therefore it is highly possible that God gave the Genesis account in a vision or dream, and if this is so, the number 7 could very easily be symbolic. The number 7 is used symbolically all the time in the vision of Revelation. Furthermore, there is a technical flaw in the possibility that the creation story be interpreted literally. The sun was created on the 4th day. 24 hour days are calculated by the sun. Without a sun, there wouldn't be any 24 hour days, unless God just counted out 24 hours in his head for some reason. There's nothing special I know of about 24 hours. Many other planets have days which last totally different amounts of time. So there's no reason to think that the Genesis 7 days were calculated by the sun, or that they were 24 hour days. Especially not when God says elsewhere in the scripture that to him "a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day." Furthermore, I think in scripture there is actually a verse that REFERS TO evolution. Most of the verses about creation say simply that God created out of dust. However, there is a verse that tells a slightly different version about how God created. Quote:
I think it explains in more detail what God is saying in the other passages when he says that God created out of dust. This passage, if tied to the theory of evolution, shows how he created out of dust. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-29-2006 at 03:53 PM. |
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03-29-2006, 04:01 PM | #338 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I think THIS discussion is probably another discussion, as well, but a few minor points: "Especially not when God says elsewhere in the scripture that to him "a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day." As St. Paul writes to the Hebrews, "Someone says somewhere..." But that verse seems me to indicate not any distortion of time but the eternity of God. Furthermore, I think in scripture there is actually a verse that REFERS TO evolution. Most of the verses about creation say simply that God created out of dust. However, there is a verse that tells a slightly different version about how God created. Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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03-29-2006, 06:14 PM | #339 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*looks around for leaves on her body*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-29-2006 at 06:15 PM. |
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03-29-2006, 06:57 PM | #340 | |||||
Elf Lord
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That's the same thing I'm doing when I interpret this nonliterally. I say the days and evenings and mornings indicate major periods. You'd have to say that some mystical divine light appeared and faded or something to indicate evenings and mornings, and that the 24 hour days existed without the sun, which is also a far from normal day. So you and I both assume abnormal days and periods. If you're going to tweak the meanings of days and evenings and mornings by saying they aren't related to the sun but rather existed in a different form than we now know them, why not just accept what I'm suggesting? Like you, I am suggesting that the three first days of creation are a different sort of day than the normal day. But if those three days are different, why not just say the other four are different also? The first three days couldn't have been ordinary days. If they weren't ordinary days, why should the next four be considered ordinary? Why should you accept a wierd interpretation of those days that says God mystically created evenings and mornings and gave us days without sunlight (and by the way, on the fourth day he created the sun and moon to give us light, which indicates that these weren't very bright days, if they had any light), very strange "days", but not just go the whole way and interpret them as something wholly different? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-29-2006 at 07:09 PM. |
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
LOTR Discussion: Appendix A, Part 1 | Valandil | LOTR Discussion Project | 26 | 12-28-2007 06:36 AM |
Rotk - Trivia - Part 3 | Spock | Lord of the Rings Books | 277 | 12-05-2006 11:01 AM |
LotR Films in Retrospect and Changed Opinions | bropous | Lord of the Rings Movies | 41 | 07-14-2006 10:14 AM |
Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age? | Gordis | Middle Earth | 141 | 07-09-2006 07:16 PM |
Theological Opinions | Nurvingiel | General Messages | 992 | 02-10-2006 04:15 PM |