Multi-culturalism boon or bane?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I would be interested in understanding why Dawkins is viewed as some sort of extremist, though.

Not sure why you think he is. Are you extrapolating from "some atheists might also be extremists" to "all atheists are extremists"? Or are you thinking of my link to the bit he wrote about the Pope?

Originally Posted by CBG

Again, atheism is not a ideology, it's just a non belief in something. It's just total strawmannery, or at least a curious understanding of the word.

If at some point in the future, you happen to read what I wrote, you might notice that I did not say it was.
All I did was posit that a given ideology may include atheism as part of its mindset. This is not to say that atheism is in and of itself an ideology, which of course, it isn't, as you note.

[Comic Book Guy]

All I did was posit that a given ideology may include atheism as part of its mindset. This is not to say that atheism is in and of itself an ideology, which of course, it isn't, as you note.

Well, why is the use of term Atheism necessary if it if may or may not be a part of the original ideology being referred to? By definition, it's an admittance that it's entirely incidental.

[BeardofPants]

WTF? Atheism IS an ideology. Just like feminism is an ideology. All an ideology is, is a set of ideas or practises. One can practise at being an atheist.

i·de·ol·o·gy (d-l-j, d-)
n. pl. i·de·ol·o·gies
1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.
2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.


And in full disclosure, I belong to skepchicks, and subscribe to various other atheist blogs/groups.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

I know a number of people I would most definitely call Atheist ideologues. You can say its not a religion but to say all atheists are exempt from any consideration of ideology or belief system and are completely unaffected by human tendency to cling to ones point of view about the world is a bit duplicitous.

Ok, what ^ said. He said it much betterer.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Not sure why you think he is. Are you extrapolating from "some atheists might also be extremists" to "all atheists are extremists"? Or are you thinking of my link to the bit he wrote about the Pope?

Mostly the bolded bit above.

Don't make me trawl the Daily Mail comments pages to find more examples, please...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Well, I can't speak for other people, but I don't really consider Dawkins to be an extremist. I took the piece I linked to be nothing but polemics, and in fact I rather enjoyed it under that aspect.

Of course, if it was serious, and not just a bit of rhetoric, then it certainly expresses extremist sentiments, in the sheer ill will towards religion, and in particular Catholicism.

EDIT: Just to be clear, the part that cannot be taken as anything but extremism, if taken seriously, is the last paragraph:

No, Pope Ratzinger should not resign. He should remain in charge of the whole rotten edifice - the whole profiteering, woman-fearing, guilt-gorging, truth-hating, child-raping institution - while it tumbles, amid a stench of incense and a rain of tourist-kitsch sacred hearts and preposterously crowned virgins, about his ears.

[Comic Book Guy]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

WTF? Atheism IS an ideology. Just like feminism is an ideology. All an ideology is, is a set of ideas or practises. One can practise at being an atheist.

i·de·ol·o·gy (d-l-j, d-)
n. pl. i·de·ol·o·gies
1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.
2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.


And in full disclosure, I belong to skepchicks, and subscribe to various other atheist blogs/groups.

It's not an ideology. It's defined by it's very rejection of a certain doctrine, belief or idea. It's exactly like saying that a person who doesn't watch football is a sports fan. I can't by definition, practice a negative.

It's more accurate to say that the word atheism is merely a word used by adherents of a particular religion to describe those who don't share their particular belief in their favoured deity. Everyone on the planet is an atheist in some regard. Joseph Ratzinger is an atheist in respect to the Greek deity Jupiter, Pagans are atheists in respect to Yahweh, Volcano god of the Jews, Muslims are atheists in respect to the pagan polytheistic deities that Mohammed was once allegedly tricked into supporting. Anyone who self-describes themselves as an atheist is really just letting religions define them, something that doesn't seem to work in the other direction. Would a sensible person go around calling religious people arationalists or anaturalists, or askeptics or ascientists? Technically speaking, that's what they are, but it's just not sensible to define people by exactly what they are not.

[Comic Book Guy]

No, Pope Ratzinger should not resign. He should remain in charge of the whole rotten edifice - the whole profiteering, woman-fearing, guilt-gorging, truth-hating, child-raping institution - while it tumbles, amid a stench of incense and a rain of tourist-kitsch sacred hearts and preposterously crowned virgins, about his ears.

I don't understand the objection, this is factually accurate. The Catholic Church is a sexist, obscurantist, financing organisation that propagates mental abuse. Not to mention the facilitation of child rapists, as the Irish Ryan report has recently shown.

Also, Catholic Kitsch really is nauseatingly tasteless. My Grandmother used to have an entire room full of this cheap rubbish, idolatry of the Virgin Mary and Padre Pio etc. The Catholic Church has inspired some amazing art, but the kitsch industry is just pure, unadulterated philistinism.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Comic Book Guy

Would a sensible person go around calling religious people arationalists or anaturalists, or askeptics or ascientists?

No, a sensible person wouldn't. They could say that some religious people are this way, though. If they aren't biased, they could (and should) add that some NON-religious people are this way, too.

But some atheists (and some religious people) aren't sensible ...

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Comic Book Guy

It's not an ideology. It's defined by it's very rejection of a certain doctrine, belief or idea. It's exactly like saying that a person who doesn't watch football is a sports fan. I can't by definition, practice a negative.

It's more accurate to say that the word atheism is merely a word used by adherents of a particular religion to describe those who don't share their particular belief in their favoured deity. Everyone on the planet is an atheist in some regard. Joseph Ratzinger is an atheist in respect to the Greek deity Jupiter, Pagans are atheists in respect to Yahweh, Volcano god of the Jews, Muslims are atheists in respect to the pagan polytheistic deities that Mohammed was once allegedly tricked into supporting. Anyone who self-describes themselves as an atheist is really just letting religions define them, something that doesn't seem to work in the other direction. Would a sensible person go around calling religious people arationalists or anaturalists, or askeptics or ascientists? Technically speaking, that's what they are, but it's just not sensible to define people by exactly what they are not.

What kind of double talk nonsense is that really? You can say you are "non-religious" or "areligious" or even that you are a skeptic and manage to avoid any formal connection to a specific ideology but if you say "I am AN Atheist" you are declaring something very formal and specific about your belief system and defining yourself AS a member of a specific group like it or not. You are AT LEAST declaring that you believe there are NO deities. And probably that you reject all spirituality as a rule. There are many many people who voluntarily crown themselves with this term specifically so the world understands they believe that there IS NOTHING. And many of them ARE ideologues of this point of view. If you want to explain to them that due to some minor linguistic technicalities they have their definitions confused and therefore arent atheists please be my guest. And while you are at it maybe you can tell Pro Choice people that they arent really pro choice since they dont believe in choice in EVERY conceivable situation. And Pro Lifers that they arent pro life since so many of them are ok with war and the death penalty. And while we are at it lets tell all the Democrats that they arent really because they dont advocate PURE democracy on every level. And dont get me started on the Conservative Party in your neck of the woods...

[inked]

ideologies: theist, polytheist, atheist.

An interesting thought sequence on Naming God can be found here:
http://www.abc.net.au/religion/artic...1=home&topic2=

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

WTF? Atheism IS an ideology. Just like feminism is an ideology. All an ideology is, is a set of ideas or practises. One can practise at being an atheist.

i·de·ol·o·gy (d-l-j, d-)
n. pl. i·de·ol·o·gies
1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.
2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.


And in full disclosure, I belong to skepchicks, and subscribe to various other atheist blogs/groups.

And what are either the social needs and aspirations or the political or economic beliefs of atheists?

You'd have to find something that unites Maoists, Randians, secular humanists, some white supremacists, among many others.

It's like saying Gwai, Rian, bin Laden, Himmler, the Dalai Lama, David Duke and Martin Luther King share an ideology because they're all religious.

Atheism as such is not all-encompassing enough to be an ideology in itself, any more than theism is.

[GrayMouser]

We've had the desecration of Sacred Books and Consecrated Crackers; how about the Holy Hamburger?

- Life for 42-year-old Ashok Malik, a hardline Hindu activist who lives on the outskirts of New Delhi, is dedicated to one cause: stopping the slaughter of cows.


Malik's cow protection team of 30 men is trained to chase trucks transporting cows and raid slaughter houses with the police to nab those selling beef in the Indian capital.
The animal is known by Hindus as "Kamdhenu", that which fulfils human needs, and it has a central place in religious rituals as well as free rein to roam in streets -- scenes familiar to anyone who has visited India.

Over the years, a majority of Indian states, including the New Delhi area, have passed controversial slaughter laws which make killing local cows illegal.

.......

Early this year, violence erupted in the hilly state of Himachal Pradesh when a Muslim butcher killed a cow in a fit of rage after it had failed to give milk for more than three years.


Hindu protesters damaged two mosques in response, setting the doors of one of them on fire.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/10092...igion_animal_1

[inked]

Well, burnt offerings have not passed out of style...

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Punja...ice-17960.html

Ideologically, Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot were all atheists and practised the logical consequences of the state is most important upon their subjects. So, it is quite true that atheist ideologies have killed more people than any religious ones. The 20th century was the century of the atheist regimes with known historical consequences that are still being uncovered - and it is a bloody legacy.

[The Gaffer]

So, from this, can we assume that you accept that people who died under theist regimes did so as a consequence of this theism?

[Rían]

My question is this: is it free rein or free reign? Seeing that in print made me wonder. In this case, I suppose either one makes sense.

[The Gaffer]

90% sure it's rein, as in a horse's reins.

[Rían]

As I think about it, I think you're right, but if I would have been asked to write it before this, I would have written "reign", I think.

So many of those sayings are said the wrong way, and usually do NOT make sense if said incorrectly (and are often very funny when said incorrectly!); this one, however, makes sense both ways! Interesting!

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by inked

Well, burnt offerings have not passed out of style...

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Punja...ice-17960.html

Yea, they take their religion seriously in the sub-continent, which is why it was a relief to see this:

An Indian court ordered the division of a patch of land in Ayodhya at the center of an ugly dispute between Muslims and Hindus, with a majority share going to Hindus.

Indians were glued to their televisions Thursday afternoon as a team of three judges at the Allahabad High Court ruled that one-third of the site would be held by a Muslim organization, with the remainder divided between two Hindu groups.

For more than a century members of the two faiths have fought over the site in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh. In 1992 a Hindu mob tore down the 16th century Babri Mosque there with pickaxes and their bare hands. Ensuing riots killed more than 2,000 people, mostly Muslim.

Despite fears that a verdict – of any kind – would unleash fresh communal violence, the region was calm in its aftermath.

“With the site being divided I don’t think there will be any big trouble in Uttar Pradesh,” says Sharat Prathan, a journalist in the state capital, Lucknow. “Indian people are so secular I don’t think they will mind if there is a mosque and a temple near to each other.”

I hope so, but it hasn't taken much in the past to spark a flame.

[GrayMouser]

Hey, Gwai, have a little mercy on us poor benighted heretics- the latest Pew quiz on religion shows that 40% of Catholics themselves don't understand the miracle of Holy Communion.

Atheists and agnostics scored highest.

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blog...ding_religion/



Take the quiz (warning- one question is almost a trick- I answered it wrong at first, but went back and corrected it before submitting, leaving with a perfect score -pride is the devil's favourite sin )

http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us...edge/index.php