REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
From my personal experience - with one of our ministers in the Methodist church, it was really a toss-up any particular week whether he'd preach out of the Bible or some other book.

The very last time I ever stepped foot into a Catholic church for mass was when the priest gave a homily about how birth control has torn down the fabric of society and responsible for all the evils thereof. I actually walked out during it.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Well, that's kinda what this thread is about. Laying out the misconceptions and getting it all right. You may have the wrong idea about some Christian religions and perhaps someone here can clarify it for you. Or you may be right on the money. But we won't know that till it comes out.

Did you see my post on a specific, first-hand example?

Edit - oh, I guess you did - we cross-posted.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
No kidding! And "brainless" is another popular jab (or at least "non-thinking") that I have seen here. MY comment was NOT a reflection on the character of the atheist, while those comments ARE a reflection on the character of the Christian.

You nor the other Christians that I know are not even close to being brainless. Mistaken perhaps but perhaps someday you will see the light.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Did you see my post on a specific, first-hand example?

Edit - oh, I guess you did - we cross-posted.

BWHAHAHA!!! We posted at the same time. I was just posting about that.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Does it bother you to read when people post that you are wrong, that your god did not make you moral, but your morality is learned through your contact with others in your society?

Actually, in Mere Christianity, C. S. Lewis says that both are true. Just because we learn morality doesn't make it man-made any more than it does the multiplication table, says he.

It goes against what I believe to be true just like what I said went against what you believe as well

Actually, it was zinnite, not you. But it still seems to me to be more impolite to accuse people of being moral just because they're afraid that God will hit a button and fry them, then to accuse people of being moral just because God wanted them to. That's just me, though.

I still have no clue why she thought Catholics worship the Pope.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I ignored it because sometimes people say things that don't deserve a response.

In what way? Did you ignore it because you thought it was mean-spirited and just decided to let it pass, or because you thought it was just a silly little aside and not meant to be commented on, or what? (not a big deal, but just mainly wanted to make sure you knew it wasn't mean-spirited).

Does it bother you to read when people post that you are wrong, that your god did not make you moral, but your morality is learned through your contact with others in your society?

No, it doesn't bother me, as long as they are friendly about it. If that's their sincere, thought-out belief, then why should it bother me? It only bothers me in the sense that I feel sad for them because I think they ARE wrong, and there are harmful ramifications to their wrong belief, but I imagine you feel the same way about me, and the feeling is based on affection for the person.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
In what way? Did you ignore it because you thought it was mean-spirited and just decided to let it pass, or because you thought it was just a silly little aside and not meant to be commented on, or what? (not a big deal, but just mainly wanted to make sure you knew it wasn't mean-spirited).

No, I didn't think you said it to poke a jab at me intentionally. But sometimes people say stuff that is cutting and they don't realize it is. So, it should just be ignored.

...It only bothers me in the sense that I feel sad for them because I think they ARE wrong, and there are harmful ramifications to their wrong belief, but I imagine you feel the same way about me, and the feeling is based on affection for the person.

Ah, but there in lies the problem... it's you who is wrong, and all those that pray to a nonexistant god. But I don't really feel sorry for you so much because when you die, you won't really find out that there is no god or reward in heaven. It will just be "poof" ... gone.

[Aden]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Aden, fellow Atheist, I must correct you on this one. Animals do hurt each other, even kill (including infanticide). Humans are just another animal, albeit a very well adapted animal, made by our environment to fit our environment.

Yes I am aware of this fact. I meant that animals don't hurt (or kill ) their own species like humans do. Humans have many more reasons to hurt other humans (money, power, fame, etc) while animals just follow their insticts. I don't know about all animals but at least a dogs( or wolves ) don't kill their species just like that (humans do). Some humans even kill others for fun or just because they can.

G.W. : it's orthodox christian

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Aden
Yes I am aware of this fact. I meant that animals don't hurt (or kill ) their own species like humans do. Humans have many more reasons to hurt other humans (money, power, fame, etc) while animals just follow their insticts. I don't know about all animals but at least a dogs( or wolves ) don't kill their species just like that (humans do). Some humans even kill others for fun or just because they can.

G.W. : it's orthodox christian

An animal's instinct is to increase it's chance of survival and passing it's genes onto another generation. Some animals purposefully outcast members of their society (example: wolves) in order to either keep their position as one that mates or to push weaker and nonproductive members out. Pushing a member of a social group out on their own leaves that member vulnerable to attack and starvation.

It has also been observed in nature, rare situations where animals will kill weaker members for no known reason other than because they can. But this is rare.

It can be argued that humans do the same... but in other, more manipulative ways.

However, I understand what you are saying. Humans have been known to kill each other for no apparent reason other than because they can. And at a higher frequency than what has been observed in the rest of the animal kingdom.

[BeardofPants]

Ruinel is correct. Murder and rape have been well documented amongst chimps.

[Nurvingiel]

Hi everyone. As I skimmed through the thread, I realized that I've had a fair amount of exposure to religion.

I'm Anglican, and I was born and raised that way. My Dad is also Anglican (born and raised), but my Mom was raised Catholic. However, she decided in her adult life to become Anglican too. My boyfriend is Wiccan, and he wasn't raised as any religion.

I've been to many Anglican services, and I taught Sunday school for a year. I've only been to one Catholic mass, and it was almost exactly the same as the Anglican ones I attend. It was a memorial service for a friend who died, and I sang with some of my friends.

However, there is great variability within both the Catholic and Anglican churches. I've been to a High Anglican service, which is extremely different from the 'regular' ones.

I participated in one Wiccan spell, but sadly, I don't really know very much about Wicca. My role was to provide energy, and I was told I did fine.

Wicca is a department where I need to bone up on my knowledge.

Cheers, Nurv

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Greetings, Nurvingiel!

If you are interested in learning more about Wicca, then go here, and ask questions.

[Ruinel]

Or... if someone who knows more about Wicca could post a few answers to Nurvingiel's questions, that would also be appropriate to this thread.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

By the way, Rian:

I'm sorry, but I seem to have been propagating heresy. Evidently, the Church does not sanction asking the saints for direct intervention, but only for intercession. Oops... My apologies.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
By the way, Rian:

I'm sorry, but I seem to have been propagating heresy. Evidently, the Church does not sanction asking the saints for direct intervention, but only for intercession. Oops... My apologies.

Pagan

[Starr Polish]

Nurvingiel (can I call you Nurvy? )...I was interested in Wicca a few years ago, although I can't say that I ever really got into it or performed a spell.

What was it a spell for? And what "type" of Wiccans were those participating it it?

Spells in Wicca are basically a way of praying, very similar to the way a Christian will approach God for help with a certain problem. Spells that severely interact with other people's lives (such as love spells) are usually looked down upon, I believe, in those who practice it seriously, and there is the three fold rule, as well. Any spell used to do harm will come back three times as badly on the person who cast it.

Also, it is spelled magick with a K to differentiate it from the type of magic in Harry Potter and magicians/illusionists. There is black magick and white magick, IIRC.

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

I would really appreciate it if someone could explain, as concisely as possible, what exactly Wicca is and where it comes from. I know three people who claim to be Wiccans, but none of them agree about what Wicca is, or if it is even a religion. (One in particular seems to be inclined to re-write history, and makes some pretty outrageous claims.) This leads me to think that two of the three aren't what they claim to be, or that two out of three haven't a clue about what they claim to be.

--Dave

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ru: Actually, Collyridian, according to the person I talked with.

Starr: The threefold rule doesn't apply if it's for the persons own good, does it? I remember an ex-Wiccan complaining about that some Wiccans will try to twist any vengeance etc. into "for someone's own good" to avoid this.

Dave: Wicca was founded in the 1940s by a man named Gardner. Anyway, it is a very nature-based religion, which, if I remember correctly, believes that all of the pagan gods are only variants on the God and the Goddess; as a whole, Wicca is much more centered on the Goddess than the God. The Wiccan rede is "An it harm none, do what ye will." There are 161 Laws which are used in some Wiccan traditions, I believe. As Starr said, magic is to Wiccans basically what prayer is to Christians. Of course, I'm not Wiccan, so I'm not an expert.

[brownjenkins]

I want to become Buddhist, don't know where to start though! As I know it, there are 3 branches: Zen, Tibetan, and something more close to what Siddhartha taught. I want to be of the last one, I'd appreciate any directions

here are a couple of the better books i have read on buddhism:

Excellent intro to Buddhism

Tibetan

Buddhism & Christianity (positive-oriented comparison)

Zen

and my favorite... not necessary on buddhism, but one of the best non-secular books on the whole concept of religion:

The Power of Myth

[Rían]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
By the way, Rian:

I'm sorry, but I seem to have been propagating heresy. Evidently, the Church does not sanction asking the saints for direct intervention, but only for intercession. Oops... My apologies.

No prob - I'll pray for you

Does intercession mean basically asking them to ask God for help? IOW, what's the def. ?