Theism - Page 16

afro-elf · 04-09-2002, 11:39 PM

I have most of those quotes saved in my own files

BOP you are a guy's dream, attractive, articulate, and the lady knows DUNE and LOTR

If you ever need a US green card...

BeardofPants · 04-09-2002, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
I have most of those quotes saved in my own files

BOP you are a guy's dream, attractive, articulate, and the lady knows DUNE and LOTR

If you ever need a US green card...

Flattery will get you.... everywhere!

Thanks, you just made my day! (Well, almost, if I didn't have to hand in this heinous research design.... ugh.)

Elfhelm · 04-10-2002, 01:04 AM

That's all well and good, for science. But myth is beautiful and I choose to think metaphorically, thanks.

BeardofPants · 04-10-2002, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
That's all well and good, for science. But myth is beautiful and I choose to think metaphorically, thanks.

Ai! Just because you're a scientifically minded person, does not mean, you are limited to scientific thought. I too, indulge in the metaphoric, and mythological. It is fundementalis theism that I don't buy. The sheer fact that I read LOTR, Dune, and the Hitchiker's guide to the galaxy suggests that not all my thinking is restricted to that of science. You can do both you know!

Elfhelm · 04-10-2002, 01:39 AM

OK, so we are mostly in agreement. Cool. But I am saying I won't throw out the scriptures just because some readers can't interpret what they read. And since these people will always exists, wouldn't it be wiser to make sure their interpretations don't lead them to blood purges of intolerance? And I don't think that can happen by giving them pure science as the only alternative. Because, you know, science is a metaphor, too. For instance, the unified field theory - very elegant. Why can't there be a unity between the jargon of one and the jargon of the other? The real problem isn't the words, it's the leaders who will twist things in whatever way is necessary for them to stay in power.

Hey, who mentioned "Satan" in this thread? Isn't that the name used in the Koran, not the Bible? And isn't it funny that "Saturn" was worshipped by people about 500 miles away from there? hmmmm.... sounds like politics to me...

Arathorn · 04-10-2002, 01:56 AM

True. Be careful of charismatic leaders.

Earenya · 04-10-2002, 11:05 AM

Indeed, and interesting thoughts on the quotes, Aragorn.

The term "Satan" in the Quran is actually a translation of the name "Iblis".

Elfhelm · 04-10-2002, 07:19 PM

Now I see, "Satan" is the name given to the adversary in Job. In Genesis there is just a crafty snake.

Andúril · 04-11-2002, 03:09 AM

Didn't God curse the snake to forever after crawl on its belly, and eat sand? What was the snake crawling on before? Feet? Snakes don't have feet, do they?

Salamander?

***Earniel*** · 04-11-2002, 04:09 AM

No kidding, Satan is Iblis? Why thank you Earenya! You've just helped me understand a short story I once read.

Earenya · 04-11-2002, 11:31 AM

Yes, at least thats what I remember from a college class I took. We have applied the term "Satan" to be the equivilent of "Iblis", which is interesting in the fact that the Quran, unlike the Bible, is forbidden to be studied (for/as religious purposes) in any language but Arabic, because it changes the meaning of words.

What short story are you refering to? It brings to my mind the Islamic story of Iblis' fall from heaven- he was commanded by God to bow down to God's creation, man, and Iblis replied, "Why should we (angels) bow to anything but You, God?" and also, "I will not bow to this thing made of clay when I am made of fire!" (Greatly paraphrased)

And yes, the implications in Genesis are that snakes were not legless to begin with. Many animated/illustrated versions of the Eden story depict the snake as a form of lizard prior to the fall of Adam.

***Earniel*** · 04-11-2002, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Earenya
What short story are you refering to? It brings to my mind the Islamic story of Iblis' fall from heaven- he was commanded by God to bow down to God's creation, man, and Iblis replied, "Why should we (angels) bow to anything but You, God?" and also, "I will not bow to this thing made of clay when I am made of fire!" (Greatly paraphrased)

Oh it was just a short story, forgot the title and who wrote it. But it was about a cople of students. On of them was a bit of a bitch and her name was Iblis.

Andúril · 04-11-2002, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Many animated/illustrated versions of the Eden story depict the snake as a form of lizard prior to the fall of Adam.

So, it wasn't a snake then? It was a lizard, that eventually became a snake?

Elfhelm · 04-11-2002, 03:10 PM

Wow! That's means that Genesis has hidden proofs of evolution, then, doesn't it?

BeardofPants · 04-11-2002, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Wow! That's means that Genesis has hidden proofs of evolution, then, doesn't it?

Gah! You bet me to it!

emplynx · 04-11-2002, 06:48 PM

God changed the serpent, it certainly wasn't evolution!

BeardofPants · 04-11-2002, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emplynx
God changed the serpent, it certainly wasn't evolution!

Yes, But God caused the evolution to occur... Nyuck nyuck nyuck.... I am rubber, you are glue....

*er... where is my medication....*

Nariel Starfire · 04-11-2002, 07:24 PM

My dear people, is it really so ridiculous to assume that snakes at Creation had legs? And since it is not, can we please stop putting into the Bible what is not there? God cursed the serpent to forever crawl on its belly. He did NOT initiate a form of evolution.

Out of curiosity, can someone show me the "evolutionary tree" that shows snakes coming from lizards and how that relates to their supposed evolution into birds, mammals, and the like?

Also, can one who believes that serpents spoke also not believe in a serpent with legs?

BeardofPants · 04-11-2002, 07:27 PM

Do a general search using google for taxonomy or taxonomical trees.

Otherwise try here:

Web Lift to Taxa (Berkeley)

Regarding snakes who can talk: it's impossible! Their thyroid is in the completely wrong position for talking, and don't get me started on the hyoid bone! What? God is breaking the natural laws of morphology? Ya don't say....

Andúril · 04-12-2002, 03:15 AM

Quote:

...it really so ridiculous to assume that snakes at Creation had legs?

Yes. They wouldn't be snakes if they had legs.

Most Christians, if I can make a generalization, accept microevolution. Macro-evolution, if I am not mistaken, is micro-evolution + time.

The nature of a creature, going from having legs, to not having legs, is a big change - it would not have happened via micro-evolution, and since macro-evolution, which is necessary in this case, needed time, the whole idea is ludicrous.

Oh wait, I forgot, God is all-powerful - he can do anything...(including evil acts...)

Just a question: Was the snake bipedal before it lost its legs? The Bible says nothing about the amount of legs it had.

Actually, I have thus far assumed it had legs - perhaps it never did! Perhaps it was a flying creature?

04-09-2002, 11:39 PM	#301
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	I have most of those quotes saved in my own files BOP you are a guy's dream, attractive, articulate, and the lady knows DUNE and LOTR If you ever need a US green card... __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 04-09-2002 at 11:41 PM.

04-10-2002, 01:04 AM	#303
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	That's all well and good, for science. But myth is beautiful and I choose to think metaphorically, thanks. __________________ cya

04-10-2002, 01:39 AM	#305
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	OK, so we are mostly in agreement. Cool. But I am saying I won't throw out the scriptures just because some readers can't interpret what they read. And since these people will always exists, wouldn't it be wiser to make sure their interpretations don't lead them to blood purges of intolerance? And I don't think that can happen by giving them pure science as the only alternative. Because, you know, science is a metaphor, too. For instance, the unified field theory - very elegant. Why can't there be a unity between the jargon of one and the jargon of the other? The real problem isn't the words, it's the leaders who will twist things in whatever way is necessary for them to stay in power. Hey, who mentioned "Satan" in this thread? Isn't that the name used in the Koran, not the Bible? And isn't it funny that "Saturn" was worshipped by people about 500 miles away from there? hmmmm.... sounds like politics to me... __________________ cya

04-10-2002, 01:56 AM	#306
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	True. Be careful of charismatic leaders. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

04-10-2002, 11:05 AM	#307
Earenya Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pinnath Gelin, formerly in Angaron... Posts: 228	Indeed, and interesting thoughts on the quotes, Aragorn. The term "Satan" in the Quran is actually a translation of the name "Iblis". __________________ O mor henion i dhu Ely siriar, el sila Ai! Aniron.... Tiro! El eria e mor I 'lir en el luitha 'uren Ai! Aniron... FRODO LIVES! Last edited by Earenya : 04-10-2002 at 11:12 AM.

04-10-2002, 07:19 PM	#308
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Now I see, "Satan" is the name given to the adversary in Job. In Genesis there is just a crafty snake. __________________ cya

04-11-2002, 03:09 AM	#309
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	Didn't God curse the snake to forever after crawl on its belly, and eat sand? What was the snake crawling on before? Feet? Snakes don't have feet, do they? Salamander?

04-11-2002, 04:09 AM	#310
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	No kidding, Satan is Iblis? Why thank you Earenya! You've just helped me understand a short story I once read. __________________ We are not things.

04-11-2002, 11:31 AM	#311
Earenya Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pinnath Gelin, formerly in Angaron... Posts: 228	Yes, at least thats what I remember from a college class I took. We have applied the term "Satan" to be the equivilent of "Iblis", which is interesting in the fact that the Quran, unlike the Bible, is forbidden to be studied (for/as religious purposes) in any language but Arabic, because it changes the meaning of words. What short story are you refering to? It brings to my mind the Islamic story of Iblis' fall from heaven- he was commanded by God to bow down to God's creation, man, and Iblis replied, "Why should we (angels) bow to anything but You, God?" and also, "I will not bow to this thing made of clay when I am made of fire!" (Greatly paraphrased) And yes, the implications in Genesis are that snakes were not legless to begin with. Many animated/illustrated versions of the Eden story depict the snake as a form of lizard prior to the fall of Adam. __________________ O mor henion i dhu Ely siriar, el sila Ai! Aniron.... Tiro! El eria e mor I 'lir en el luitha 'uren Ai! Aniron... FRODO LIVES!

04-11-2002, 03:10 PM	#314
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Wow! That's means that Genesis has hidden proofs of evolution, then, doesn't it? __________________ cya

04-11-2002, 06:48 PM	#316
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	God changed the serpent, it certainly wasn't evolution!

04-11-2002, 07:24 PM	#318
Nariel Starfire Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: La La Land Posts: 309	My dear people, is it really so ridiculous to assume that snakes at Creation had legs? And since it is not, can we please stop putting into the Bible what is not there? God cursed the serpent to forever crawl on its belly. He did NOT initiate a form of evolution. Out of curiosity, can someone show me the "evolutionary tree" that shows snakes coming from lizards and how that relates to their supposed evolution into birds, mammals, and the like? Also, can one who believes that serpents spoke also not believe in a serpent with legs? __________________ It is the failed skydiver who leaves an impression upon the earth. "But what about the R.O.U.Ses?" Yours Truly, The Tisroc -You forgot to say "May he live forever" -That's because I don't want him to live forever! - The Horse and his Boy--C.S. Lewis

04-11-2002, 07:27 PM	#319
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Do a general search using google for taxonomy or taxonomical trees. Otherwise try here: Web Lift to Taxa (Berkeley) Regarding snakes who can talk: it's impossible! Their thyroid is in the completely wrong position for talking, and don't get me started on the hyoid bone! What? God is breaking the natural laws of morphology? Ya don't say.... __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 04-11-2002 at 07:36 PM.

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