Relativism VS. Absoulte

[Wayfarer]

<random>
It has become a habit of mine to begin posts with off the wall thoughts-here's one for today.

You hold that suffering is bad, correct?
So anything that ablates sufferering would be good, correct?
By that token, human death is good if it prevents or lessens suffering, correct?
And since everyone suffers during thier lives, the sooner they die, the less suffering they live through, right?

<random>

all threads degenerate into theological debates.

Indeed. Although I'm not quite sure who's at fault there. It seems to me that you started all this. Forgive me if I insist on seeing it to it's conclusion. A fault of mine. ]: )

Actually, Xandre... I did have some way of tying that quasirant in with absolutism... but I promptly forgot it. Ah, me.

Now, Anduril.


Now...

I must make clear that when I refer to suffering, I am not speaking about death. Suffering, in the sense that is is a deterrent and a indicator of wrongness, is not the same as death, which is the transition from this temporary state to the eternal. The fact or manner of death is not determinant as to how one spend's eternity.

Furthermore, God's wrath is not specefically related to physical death, except that it is a consequence of sin, as seperation from God. Indeed, it seems that I was incorrect even to equate it with earthly suffering. I read that "...because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed." and likewise "...I pass judgment on no one, But if I do judge, my decisions are right..."

And so while it seems to me that while God's wrath is a reaction to human badness, it is not out of anger or judgment that God allows/causes human suffering, which as you correctly pointed out would be an excercise in futility, but in order that humans may realize their inadaquacy and make themselves right with him prior to 'the day of God's Wrath'.

That said, it is puzzling that God seems to directly hasten the deaths of some, but not of others. But one never knows how long one will live, and that is why Christians emphasize that one needs to make the choice now while there is still time for choosing, because one never knows how much time there is left...

On the upside, I know that He wants each of us to make that choice. And I don't know how he determines when we should die. But it has never been a question of whether or not one will repent given sufficient time, but has one repented in the time that is given.

Now I said that god loves us and wants our good. That is true. But I also said specefically that each human being has the choice to reject that good and choose something else.

But i've ovverun my timeslot for tonight... may I request that you allow me to finish tommorow?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Indeed. Although I'm not quite sure who's at fault there. It seems to me that you started all this. Forgive me if I insist on seeing it to it's conclusion. A fault of mine. ]: )

Not this time O Longwinded One. And I can already see the direction of this thread, ever bending towards the Withywindle!

[Andúril]

Wayfarer:
I must make clear that when I refer to suffering, I am not speaking about death.

Fine. However, as Wayfarer should have seen in my last two responses, I was not talking explicitly nor implicitly about suffering. I referred specifically to death as caused by the wrath of God.

More:
Suffering, in the sense that is is a deterrent and a indicator of wrongness...

I am aware of people who lived their lives without theology, who suffered tremendously less than those Christians in our South African squater camps, who are faced with malnutrition, inadequte housing, floods, a tornado (once last year), etc. Since some Christians suffer prodigously more than some non-Christians, and since suffering is "a deterrent and an indicator of wrongness", it follows that some Christians should be detterred more and are more wrong than some non-Christians.

More:
Furthermore, God's wrath is not specefically related to physical death...

Except that when God gets angry, and exercises his wrath, people die.

More:
And so while it seems to me that while God's wrath is a reaction to human badness, it is not out of anger or judgment that God allows/causes human suffering, which as you correctly pointed out would be an excercise in futility, but in order that humans may realize their inadaquacy and make themselves right with him prior to 'the day of God's Wrath'.

I am not sure why Wayfarer thinks that suffering is the issue, because it isn't. I referred specifically to death as caused by the wrath of God. Once again, let me bring Wayfarer's attention to the infants who were ordered to be murdered. And once again I will point out that those infants (and everyone else that suffered the same fate) could not possibly "realize their inadequacy and make themselves right". They had their lives ended.

More:
That said, it is puzzling that God seems to directly hasten the deaths of some, but not of others.

It is puzzling why he hastens the death of anybody.

More:
But one never knows how long one will live, and that is why Christians emphasize that one needs to make the choice now while there is still time for choosing, because one never knows how much time there is left...

Here's a scenario. Pretend that there is a guy X who leads a sinful life. He decides that in ten years time, he is going to stop his sinful behaviour, get married and have kids, and become a Christian. But, for now, he'll do pretty much whatever he wants to do.

X is killed in a drive-by the next day.

Did X go to hell? He was not a Christian at the time of his death. But his intention was to join the flock at a later stage of his life. If God is benevolent, would he send X to hell?

If God was merciful and allowed X into heaven, then what about those non-Christianse who don't know how they will feel in ten years time? Surely there would be a possibility that some would become Christians at a later stage of their lives? If God wants us all to be Christians, and some of us become Christians at a very old age (after being non-believers for the majority of our lives), then why judge them on what they believe at the time of death (say, caused by natural disasters)? If a five year old girl dies in a flood, and does not believe in the Hebrew war god, but might have come to that belief at a later stage had the flood not ocurred, what type of deity would ignore this possibility?

More:
On the upside, I know that He wants each of us to make that choice.

False. You don't kill babies if you want them to make that choice. In fact, you don't kill anyone, because choices cannot be made by dead people.

More:
And I don't know how he determines when we should die.

Well, according to the Bible, if God lost his temper he would smite. He did it profusely. But now, we find that the same state of affairs obtains, but God does nothing. And why is the state of affairs the same? Unfortunately for Wayfarer, his omnipotent deity cannot "fix" it.

More:
But it has never been a question of whether or not one will repent given sufficient time, but has one repented in the time that is given.

Some people aren't given the same amount of time as others. As the bible shows, God is perfectly happy with giving some people only a couple of days...

More:
Now I said that god loves us and wants our good. That is true.

Yes, yes, God loved those 10,000 Moabites, didn't he? He wanted their good, didn't he? Nope. He had them destroyed.

More:
But I also said specefically that each human being has the choice to reject that good and choose something else.

Unfortunately, nonsense. Still-births occur.

[BeardofPants]

@#$%! Is this *still* going on?! What exactly does this egg splattering have to do with the thread title in question?

[Andúril]

What exactly does this egg splattering have to do with the thread title in question?

Absolutely nothing.

[Blackheart]

You're all just a pack of cards!

Relatively speaking of course....

[Andúril]

I am an ace.

[Arathorn]

Am I a Joker?

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Arathorn
Am I a Joker?

Yes.

[BeardofPants]

Well I want the King.

[Blackheart]

And I'll be the dealer.

After all it's relative you know.

[afro-elf]

Guess I'm a spade.

[Blackheart]

OW!

Bad pun.

Baaaaad!

[BeardofPants]

I've changed my mind. I want to be the Queen of Hearts. Off with their heads!

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I'll be the king of diamonds

(don't ask...)

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
[B]I've changed my mind. I want to be the Queen of Hearts.

Oh, you're a Juice Newton fan.

[BeardofPants]

If by that you mean a lewis carrol fan, then yes. If you're talking about the music group, then no, I haven't heard their stuff.

[Khamûl]

And what exactly does this have to do with Relativism vs. Absolutism? Back to topic please.

[Blackheart]

I thought this was reletivism.

It's all in the book you know.

Especially that scene where Alice is undergoing a trial.

[Andúril]

I'm still trying to figure out what absoulte is.