The Singers Thread

[Tessar]

I'll have a bit more to say tomorrow about singing, but just wanted to say don't worry about the sleep aid .

As far as I'm aware it's not addictive (it's just an over the counter, not a prescription), and it definitely does not knock you out and keep you out... I woke up a few times last night like I've been doing the last few weeks so it doesn't "keep you under", but the thing is I didn't have to lay in bed for an hour before I finally drifted off, it happens very, very quickly.

[Tessar]

I finally feel like I have about 80/90% of my voice back today. HOORAY!!!

You know how sometimes you just have to hear something over and over and over, and think about it, and then hear it again, then see it in action a few times before you get it? Well, I -finally- understand how to study my music.

Watching those people perform at the Met. auditions was truly something to behold. The girl who tied with my friend for first place, the 27 year-old soprano, was SO amazing it sounded like she should've been at the Met already.

I'll be honest, I didn't think my friend was up to it vocally. But today I realized something... my friend didn't win just because of his potential, it was because of the absolutely perfect musicality of his singing. I feel stupid for not realizing it right away, but -because- my friend works so hard he is just musically perfect when he sings... the emotion, the vowels, the vocal coloring, the phrasing and the total passion with which he sings. I think that's why he must have won.

So today I got in a practice room and spent 30 minutes working just one phrase from my new Quliter piece (Now Sleeps The Crimson Petal, which I LOVE to death ) and lo and behold I can now sing it pretty well, and the more I sing it the more tiiiiiny little glitches that I find and fix... and as each one gets fixed, the phrase is taking more shape. I did the same thing with the second phrase this afternoon, and then putting them together, etc... I think I'm starting to understand how to do this .

Maybe I'm just fooling myself, but I think my voice has actually improved from working this way. I sang the second phrase better than the first right away, even though it's "trickier", because I had already worked out some little glitchy things in my voice for the first phrase.

The singing 'tiny' thing is working SO well for helping to save my voice, and get it placed. I can hear things better in my voice now.


I know I'm being totally conceited... but even though my first thought at hearing the auditions was, "Oh my God, this is too hard, I will never sound like that... I give up," the more I thought about it, the more I felt like maybe that CAN be me in another five or six years. We'll see. Pray for me .

Either way, if I can work this way up until NATS in November I think I really -will- be prepared to the best of my abilities . Although at this point I still think I'll be lucky to make simifinals.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I know I'm being totally conceited... but even though my first thought at hearing the auditions was, "Oh my God, this is too hard, I will never sound like that... I give up," the more I thought about it, the more I felt like maybe that CAN be me in another five or six years. We'll see. Pray for me .

Either way, if I can work this way up until NATS in November I think I really -will- be prepared to the best of my abilities . Although at this point I still think I'll be lucky to make simifinals.

Even if you only (or not at all) make the semifinals in November, I guess the important thing will be if you know that you have performed to the best of your abilities. If the best of your abilities isn't good enough, then so be it - it may be different in five or six years! What has annoyed you recently is just that you haven't been able to sing at your best.

So if you're learning new techniques for correcting yourself, that's great! It's interesting to follow your diligent work. 30 minutes - for one phrase? That's dedication

[Voronwen]

Tessar, you are not conceited! Just because you are hearing good things as a result of your hard work, is only an honest assessment. That's very different from saying "Listen to me, aren't i GREAT, i should be singing at the Met right now!" Now that would be conceited.

You only need to worry about that if and when you hear yourself on a recording and think it's the best thing since sliced bread, without hearing any of the flaws. Then you will have lost touch with being able to objectively assess your own work, and i'd hope that at that point you would have the presence of mind at least to come here and get yourself blasted back into reality. But i don't see that happening with you anytime soon.

That said, i'm so glad to hear that you mostly have your voice back! It's hard to make any progress when your voice is out of commission.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Even if you only (or not at all) make the semifinals in November, I guess the important thing will be if you know that you have performed to the best of your abilities. If the best of your abilities isn't good enough, then so be it - it may be different in five or six years!

Absolutely! I think the most important thing for me to do right now is simply work as hard as I can and be a sponge... to learn as much as possible so that if I ever have a chance, I'll be as prepared for it as I can be.

What has annoyed you recently is just that you haven't been able to sing at your best.

That's a big part of it. It was also extremely frustrating for me to feel like I was having to start over at square one -again-. Because I did that last year too with my really good teacher... and he did a lot of good things for my voice. I'm sure this will be a similar situation. My voice is definitely slowly becoming more free .

One thing that bothered me was that every day I hear my 'peers' singing and I think, "great, they get to sing this stuff while I'm back at square one," but today I was really listening and I realized that they make the same vocal/technical mistakes I do... the ones I'm now in the process of fixing. So I guess I'm not really behind . The only difference is that their teachers are letting them sing the harder stuff while mine is keeping me on some simpler things to make it easier to work out my technique.

So if you're learning new techniques for correcting yourself, that's great! It's interesting to follow your diligent work. 30 minutes - for one phrase? That's dedication

I have been blessed enough to develop an ability to withstand things that most people consider unspeakably dull . It's definitely tough work, and it's very intense... because you have to make sure that the current 'thing' you're working on in that phrase doesn't make you forget the work you've done on other stuff in the phrase. It's very satisfying when things work out . I'm happy to do the work because I -want- to be amazing some day, and this is the way to get there.

Maria Callas was considered one of the greatest singers ever by a lot of people... and although I can't stand her voice, her artistry is absolutely breathtaking. It's because supposedly she would sometimes go into a room and work for three hours, then come out only having worked on one or two pages of music. According to all of the stuff I've read about her, conductors said she was the closest thing to a 'perfect singer' as it's possible to be because of how hard she worked and the way she learned her music. If such an incredible musician can work on a page for three hours, thirty minutes is the least I can do for a phrase .

Originally Posted by Voronwen

That said, i'm so glad to hear that you mostly have your voice back! It's hard to make any progress when your voice is out of commission.

No kidding! My voice teacher has cut me a lot of slack lately because of all of the hard Pirates work, and my voice being out. But after two practice sessions today, singing a little in choir (I'm mostly lip syncing though! O_o shhh!), and then the Pirates rehearsal my voice still feels great. So YAY! I'm being very careful, and gentle, to make sure that doesn't happen again!

[Voronwen]

The only difference is that their teachers are letting them sing the harder stuff while mine is keeping me on some simpler things to make it easier to work out my technique.

This is a good thing Because now, when you sing the hard stuff later on, it won't be rife with bad habits

I won't say anything about the lip syncing in choir That's actually not a bad idea for saving your voice, especially on those days that are very singing-intensive (and don't all music departments schedule all those things on one day? You can tell a singer didn't make those schedules!).

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Personally i'd rather be pouring out my heart and soul into Ach, ich fühl's or Lascia ch'io pianga. Neither of them go above a Bb (though i often interpolate a C into the latter during the da capo), but i've moved people with these pieces. There's a certain 'home base' where i tend to always come back to, if that makes any sense. There's nothing like hitting Lascia after too much tinkering around with crazy stuff. That voice/temperament connection feels right and good.

At the end of the day, i need to remind myself to "bloom where i'm planted". Trying new repertoire is a lot like trying on gowns - they can be the correct style and size, but entirely the wrong color.

Well, to quote a great mentor of mine (the woman who helped me get ready for my audition to enter the school of music), it's not all about the high notes. Musicality and great performances are above all of that .

If you can sing an amazing Lascia then that's -fantastic-. Like you said, just because you have the high notes doesn't mean you need to perform them. Keep the high notes in shape because it's always fun to pop in an aria every once in a while which shows off your crazy vocal capabilities, but if you actually shine in other rep then you need to sing that other rep.

I knew a woman who was a great teacher and wonderful soprano... and when I asked her what kind of a voice she had, she said that she could sing high soprano but felt like she shined in more middle-range stuff. i.e. she would sing Quando Mien Vo (which is one of my most favorite arias ever in the history of ever ) and things like that. More lyric rep, although I did hear her singing some stuff from the Doll Aria from Tales of Hoffmann one time, so it's not like she didn't have the notes.

On the other hand, I met a woman over the summer who has a gorgeous, rich voice and she sings stuff like Glitter and Be Gay... so sometimes even voice coloring isn't a perfect indicator of where your voice will shine.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Well, to quote a great mentor of mine (the woman who helped me get ready for my audition to enter the school of music), it's not all about the high notes. Musicality and great performances are above all of that .

Yes, i can't help but agree

If you can sing an amazing Lascia then that's -fantastic-. Like you said, just because you have the high notes doesn't mean you need to perform them. Keep the high notes in shape because it's always fun to pop in an aria every once in a while which shows off your crazy vocal capabilities, but if you actually shine in other rep then you need to sing that other rep.

This works A 'famous' example would be Sandrine Piau, who has a lighter voice but sings the holy heck out of lyric rep and occasionally pops a random high E into it This can certainly be done! Even Fleming had high E's and at the beginning of her career was singing Bel Canto. I heard once that Angela Gheorghiu has a G6 - but you don't hear her singing Queen of the Night.

I knew a woman who was a great teacher and wonderful soprano... and when I asked her what kind of a voice she had, she said that she could sing high soprano but felt like she shined in more middle-range stuff. i.e. she would sing Quando Mien Vo (which is one of my most favorite arias ever in the history of ever ) and things like that. More lyric rep, although I did hear her singing some stuff from the Doll Aria from Tales of Hoffmann one time, so it's not like she didn't have the notes.

I can relate to her. I've worked the Doll Aria and have performed Be Kind and Courteous and Tornami a vaggeghiar, but none of this stuff has gotten me the good comments, if you know what i mean (things like "Wow.. that was beautiful... that was really moving..." etc). When i sing that "Doll Aria" type stuff, i don't get any comments at all. But the comments i get on my lyric rep are usually extremely good!

On the other hand, I met a woman over the summer who has a gorgeous, rich voice and she sings stuff like Glitter and Be Gay... so sometimes even voice coloring isn't a perfect indicator of where your voice will shine.

This is a good point, Tessar. I think often my vocal color has confused teachers, coaches, and me I have what some have described as a "bright" vocal color, like you would associate with a coloratura. I've heard this on recordings, too, there's a 'pingy' little quality over the sound despite the fact that in recent years i've grown into more warmth as my technique has improved. But Glitter and Be Gay is definitely not my bag of tricks I tried singing through it once, and hated it. Well, i also hate the piece to begin with so i couldn't even begin to emotionally connect. But more importantly, it feels alien to my voice. It makes me want to run back to the quiet shade of Handel's Care Selve.

[Tessar]

Could you be more of a Sumi Jo, potentially?

I know she's a coloratura but where I passionately love her voice, and would do her bidding if she sang it at me, is the more lyrical stuff. Her Faure Pie Jesu for example... nothing particularly high in that, but she sings the CRAP out of that piece. I just love her lower lying stuff.

Or like my good friend, who is Mabel in our show. I -adore- her whistle notes (some days she has that C7), but they're not the only exciting thing about her voice like you find in some coloraturas. She's got a beautiful middle and lower register. In fact at the workshop some people actually thought she was a mezzo because she's unafraid of flipping over into her chest voice to add drama to her lower notes, and she's perfectly happy to mix through her middle range for that same dramatic effect... definitely -not- a lyric soprano though. Much lighter than that.

Renee Fleming actually has/had(?) a G6 in her youth. I forget what aria it is, but she does some melizma up to it, touches it, then comes back down off of it... which is -extraordinary- in a voice that 'thick'. Of course I don't usually like her much... I hate how she scoops and makes all of her vowels really dark... but on some stuff, I think she is indisputably the best alive.



I had a good lesson today . My voice is a little icky again from allergies and barely getting any sleep last night, but nothing major if I can remember to be smart tonight at rehearsal. I can either be smart and it will be no problem, or I can be dumb and forget to monitor myself... if I do that I'll probably 'lose' my voice again. So I'm going to try to be smart .

One interesting thing we found while singing the Quilter is that if I'm singing as legato as I possibly can, I can jump from a middle-range note up into my high register without even a tiny hint of 'gripping' in my throat. But at the moment it's completely impossible for me to start in that high range without grabbing, and if I try to do the jump without the best legato I can make, it grips. So it's an air thing, and a tongue tension thing, we think.

My teacher surprised me today by saying that I've got almost all of my old 'volume' back. Which is great. I'm singing almost the same volume with only a fraction of the 'effort' . This 'tiny' sound is doing -awesome- stuff for me, and I think as time goes on it will continue to serve me really well.

My palate is still being problematic. I just can't always tell when it's up, and even some times when I focus on keeping it raised, it will only rise about half way... so that's frustrating -but- it's much better than it was a few weeks ago.

What's also frustrating is that I apparently just have this completely warped idea of vowels. To make an 'ah' like in 'can', I have to be literally trying to sing an 'a' like I would for 'cat'. Of course the frustration is that when my palate slips down a little it -does- become that over-bright a, but when my palate is raised properly it comes out like a proper 'ah'.


On the plus side, I'm trying to give up setting 'static' goals for myself as far as technique and such are concerned. I would try to set things in my head like, "a month from now I'll have mastered how to keep my palate up!" and that was stressing me out. So now I'm trying to be very specific as far as my musicality goals (i.e. I will have this piece memorized by Friday, and I will work this phrase today), but I'm sticking with, "I will try my best to do x-skill," rather than, "I will have x-skill mastered by y-date."

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Could you be more of a Sumi Jo, potentially?

I know she's a coloratura but where I passionately love her voice, and would do her bidding if she sang it at me, is the more lyrical stuff. Her Faure Pie Jesu for example... nothing particularly high in that, but she sings the CRAP out of that piece. I just love her lower lying stuff.

Pie Jesu, from the Requiem!! ?! I've performed that!

I've never heard her singing this kind of stuff but i'll have to try to find that now, because i'm curious.

Or like my good friend, who is Mabel in our show. I -adore- her whistle notes (some days she has that C7), but they're not the only exciting thing about her voice like you find in some coloraturas. She's got a beautiful middle and lower register. In fact at the workshop some people actually thought she was a mezzo because she's unafraid of flipping over into her chest voice to add drama to her lower notes, and she's perfectly happy to mix through her middle range for that same dramatic effect... definitely -not- a lyric soprano though. Much lighter than that.

C7????? No way! I have never had that note. Never, no way, no how. The very highest i've ever touched was an Ab6, and i think that was only once in my life.

My lower register isn't anything to write home about, though. It sounds as if this girl has a huge range, in both directions, which is common in true coloraturas. And if she's singing Mabel, hats off to her. My voice hates Poor Wand'ring One. (And the feeling is mutual. ) It also doesn't possess the right timbre for Mabel. It sounds like her voice might be quite different from mine.

Renee Fleming actually has/had(?) a G6 in her youth. I forget what aria it is, but she does some melizma up to it, touches it, then comes back down off of it... which is -extraordinary- in a voice that 'thick'. Of course I don't usually like her much... I hate how she scoops and makes all of her vowels really dark... but on some stuff, I think she is indisputably the best alive.

I don't like those things either about the way she sings, but you're right, in some things she's awesome. I never knew about her G6!

One interesting thing we found while singing the Quilter is that if I'm singing as legato as I possibly can, I can jump from a middle-range note up into my high register without even a tiny hint of 'gripping' in my throat. But at the moment it's completely impossible for me to start in that high range without grabbing, and if I try to do the jump without the best legato I can make, it grips. So it's an air thing, and a tongue tension thing, we think.

Might it also have something to do with placement? Are you placed forward enough?

My teacher surprised me today by saying that I've got almost all of my old 'volume' back. Which is great. I'm singing almost the same volume with only a fraction of the 'effort' . This 'tiny' sound is doing -awesome- stuff for me, and I think as time goes on it will continue to serve me really well.

YAY!!

My palate is still being problematic. I just can't always tell when it's up, and even some times when I focus on keeping it raised, it will only rise about half way... so that's frustrating -but- it's much better than it was a few weeks ago.

This is also good news. Just stay mindful of it.

What's also frustrating is that I apparently just have this completely warped idea of vowels. To make an 'ah' like in 'can', I have to be literally trying to sing an 'a' like I would for 'cat'. Of course the frustration is that when my palate slips down a little it -does- become that over-bright a, but when my palate is raised properly it comes out like a proper 'ah'.

"Ah" is no fun It's notorious for being problematic for native English speakers, especially Americans (so many dialects to mess with the "ah"!).

On the plus side, I'm trying to give up setting 'static' goals for myself as far as technique and such are concerned. I would try to set things in my head like, "a month from now I'll have mastered how to keep my palate up!" and that was stressing me out. So now I'm trying to be very specific as far as my musicality goals (i.e. I will have this piece memorized by Friday, and I will work this phrase today), but I'm sticking with, "I will try my best to do x-skill," rather than, "I will have x-skill mastered by y-date."

Technique grows in an organic sort of way, like a plant (i hope that makes sense! ). It's impossible to set those kinds of static goals for it. That's like planting flowers and then saying "These will be in bloom by April 15th". It doesn't work like that!

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Or like my good friend, who is Mabel in our show. I -adore- her whistle notes (some days she has that C7), [...]

Renee Fleming actually has/had(?) a G6 in her youth. I forget what aria it is, but she does some melizma up to it, touches it, then comes back down off of it... which is -extraordinary- in a voice that 'thick'. [...]

[...]

What's also frustrating is that I apparently just have this completely warped idea of vowels. To make an 'ah' like in 'can', I have to be literally trying to sing an 'a' like I would for 'cat'. Of course the frustration is that when my palate slips down a little it -does- become that over-bright a, but when my palate is raised properly it comes out like a proper 'ah'.

Originally Posted by Voronwen

C7????? No way! I have never had that note. Never, no way, no how. The very highest i've ever touched was an Ab6, and i think that was only once in my life.

I don't like those things either about the way she sings, but you're right, in some things she's awesome. I never knew about her G6!

"Ah" is no fun It's notorious for being problematic for native English speakers, especially Americans (so many dialects to mess with the "ah"!).

This makes me curious - what is the highest note any composer has expected his soprano singer to sing?

And is there a difference between the ah-vowel in can and the one in cat? Or is that only my British prejudice - I studied English in England - shining through? (Btw, I once talked to a Japanese who couldn't hear the difference between 'fast' and 'first' ...)

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

This makes me curious - what is the highest note any composer has expected his soprano singer to sing?

Sopranos interpolate higher notes all the time, as high as they want to sing (or can). Dessay's Ab6 at the end of this clip (at 6:01) is not written into the Offenbach score. But the highest written note is a G6 in Mozart's concert aria, Popoli di Tessaglia - here's Dessay again with a killer G6! (first heard at 6:57, then again at 7:08)

And is there a difference between the ah-vowel in can and the one in cat? Or is that only my British prejudice - I studied English in England - shining through? (Btw, I once talked to a Japanese who couldn't hear the difference between 'fast' and 'first' ...)

That's funny you ask, because i had asked myself the same question when i first read his post! I actually sat here saying "can....cat....can...cat" to myself for a while before i could hear it as it's so slight in my own accent. But i was born and raised in New England, where the vowels are supposedly the most like England out of anywhere in the US. If i listen to the way my husband, a native of the Midwest, says these two words, there is a definite difference. I don't know if that answers your question..?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

That's funny you ask, because i had asked myself the same question when i first read his post! I actually sat here saying "can....cat....can...cat" to myself for a while before i could hear it

I did the exact same thing. I must have repeated them a dozen times before I decided that can was a bit more drawn out, a bit "harder" than cat.

[Tessar]

I say can with a little bit of 'ah' like 'father', although maybe not that drastic... 'father' would be a better example. I have to sing 'a' like 'cat' to get 'a' like 'father'.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Sopranos interpolate higher notes all the time, as high as they want to sing (or can). Dessay's Ab6 at the end of this clip (at 6:01) is not written into the Offenbach score. But the highest written note is a G6 in Mozart's concert aria, Popoli di Tessaglia - here's Dessay again with a killer G6! (first heard at 6:57, then again at 7:08)

I see! Perhaps eventually some composer might try to go even higher, because he knows about some singer who can?

If i listen to the way my husband, a native of the Midwest, says these two words, there is a definite difference. I don't know if that answers your question..?

It's all I can ask for on a text based discussion board - yes or no, and the answer is yes

My next question would have been 'what is the difference' - but then we'd be over at youtube

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

I see! Perhaps eventually some composer might try to go even higher, because he knows about some singer who can?

I'm sure they're out there already .... does anyone know who is more familiar with present-day composers?

My next question would have been 'what is the difference' - but then we'd be over at youtube

Right I'm glad it was helpful.

ETA, as for "singers who can", that was the case with the afforementioned Mozart aria. His sister in law, Aloysia Weber, was the person he wrote that aria and several others for. All of 'her' arias have notes above the soprano high C (C6). Handel and other earlier composers didn't write above high C, generally. Aloysia had an extraordinary whistle range, according to accounts of the day.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

I'm sure they're out there already .... does anyone know who is more familiar with present-day composers?

I -think- Eric Whittaker might have written a soprano role that involves whistle register. I have no idea how high it goes.

My teacher says that modern composers tend to be extremely demanding... for instance even baritones are being asked to sing A#4's in modern compositions, and that's much rarer in regular operas. I believe, although without any solid evidence, there's something of a modern 'fad' for high voices and there is less being written that involves low notes.

I think a lot of modern composers aren't singers, where as many of the old opera writers were also singers (although not always professional). Also modern singers are required to perform much more strenuously and frequently than they used to be.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

All of 'her' arias have notes above the soprano high C (C6). Handel and other earlier composers didn't write above high C, generally.

As I understand it, Handel's soprano roles, for the most part, don't even get that high. I hear that Gioacchino Conti was an exceptionally high soprano; the fact Handel often wrote high C's for him was adduced as proof. Is this true? That is, that Handel's soprano roles often don't get to high C's?

[Tessar]

It's difficult to say whether or not the High C and above were considered standard for singers to perform.

It's possible that it was 'understood' that a singer would interpolate extra high notes as a part of their artistry, or it's also possible that many singers did not have the technique... or maybe nutrition to support the extra top notes. I know that sounds like an odd thing to say, but it's quite possible that without a proper, healthy diet many singers would have had a smaller vocal range. I know during my freshman year when I wasn't eating enough my vocal range diminished and I was less able to control my voice.

I also imagine less sanitary living conditions would've left many people prone to more frequent illness, and even with good technique you can't always utilize your highest notes while sick. So possibly the lower notes were more of a safety measure?

Or potentially it was just not considered fashionable to sing that high. Maybe they just thought it was screaming .

Everything I've written is pure conjecture, and I have no idea if I'm even on the right track .

[Tessar]

Oh my Gosh, I feel totally crappy O_o. I thought last night that I would be okay to go to class today, but then I was laying in bed and I thought, "I'd better skip my 8 a.m. class. No point in getting up at 6:30 just to be exhausted later." So I slept in, and got up around 7:45... then I was okay for a little while, and I thought I'd leave the house around 9:30... but I am so exhausted.

I think I'm going to drive to school, because I need to return some library books and pick up the tickets for my family, but then I'm coming back home.

My throat isn't in great shape, either. It's really weird. :-/ It feels simultaneously dry and yet is covered in phlegm. I'll have to be -very- careful with my voice tonight, because I have a feeling I wont have a whole lot to play around with.

The last time I had steroids it was a pack of pills, and it actually gave me more energy. But something in those shots must have zapped me pretty good. I actually feel more tired today than yesterday.