Theological Opinions , PART II

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I took so long to post mine you guys have both posted already.

I'll have to go back and read 'em now.

*off he goes*

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

If it must be a multiple choice question, I'd say random chance is much less impossible.

Why?

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I believe in good and bad in their platonian forms.

Why?

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

And everybody makes an impact. They don't even have to try. Someone will remember you, and you'll change the way they think, maybe just a tiny bit, or maybe you'll change the course of just one day in their life. But in any case, you affect someone. Then they, a little bit different because of your memory, affect the other people they encounter, and your legacy lives on forever even though no one gives you credit.

I think that may very well be just being optimistic. Which is fine, of course . I hope to be remembered and to have an impact too, but I have little doubt its touch on this life will only be temporary.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Worthless, pointless? Still, I guess so. But while I exist, I might as well make it a happy existence. Happy meaning full of smiles and platonian good. That's the least I could do. But that's dangerously boring.* So I also try to spread goodness to other people. It probably doesn't matter. Destructive attitudes probably don't matter either, but destroying things all the time is less fun and never leads to anything good.

But why lead to anything good? Just because it's fun? Not much of a reason.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

It proves we're human, nothing more. You might be overananlyzing something very simple.

I'm just saying it's obvious that what it means to be human is what it means to be sinful. They mean the same thing.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

It depends on the person. It was harder for me at one point, but I changed. Now, I realize that there's a certain amount of doublethink involved in religion, and I hate doublethink. If you're OK with it, or your dependency on an organized religion outweighs your desire to think freely, or if (the rarest case) you truly do agree with every word a particular religion teaches, than go ahead and be part of that religion. Christianity disagrees and that's what first made me stray from it. Things are simpler for me now. The only real good is the unquestionably good, and the only real bad is the unquestionably bad. Anything in between, which is the vast majority of life, we can't judge and IMO we shouldn't waste our time trying to judge. It's just a big part of our lives and we should try to make it good if we can. It isn't worthless though IMO; it trains us in patience and all sorts of discipline.

And what's the worth of that?

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

The evidence for Atlantis would be equally overwhelming if someone said to have seen it over 2000 years ago and everyone since has been praising the idea and calling all the nonbelievers names. It doesn't change the facts.

I have listed several evidences for Christianity, and none of them has yet been eyewitness accounts. Though I'd love to go into the eyewitness accounts next!

Jesus' disciples were the eyewitnesses of his resurrection. They claimed to have walked around with him after his resurrection, conversed with him and eaten meals with him while he was all the time with them in the body. So these were eyewitnesses who must have been absolutely sure whether what they were seeing was real or fake. Their claims about what experiences they'd had left no room for uncertainty. They were either lying or they were telling the truth that Jesus was alive.

Then what did they go and do? They died for their beliefs. All of them died for their belief in Jesus' resurrection except John, who was exiled to a remote island. Lots of people throughout time have died for their beliefs from many religions, but these people died for something they were absolutely certain was either true or a lie.

I don't think anyone would die for something they knew to be a lie. Some do die, however, for what they believe to be true. Therefore the disciples were people we know were willing to lay down their lives for something they must have known was true or a lie, and as people do not die for lies, they must have died for what was true.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I could easily explain away prayer and the stigmata, but not consicesly enough to be worthwhile at this hour.

Can you explain away a car driving sideways along a vertical cliff? Or a young man climbing on an active electric fence without being harmed at all? A woman who had at least two unavailing surgeries on her knees that had been causing her pain for years and who had to walk everywhere on a walker healed instantaneously by the power of prayer, and able to walk away carrying the walker on her shoulder? A girl who was trapped underwater in a pool party becoming able to breathe underwater until she was helped out of the pool? Because all of these are events that occurred to friends of mine except for two cases. In one of them (the car episode), it was the grandmother of a friend, and the electric fence episode happened to me when I was very young, according to my parents.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

At the risk of sounding like I'm reproaching myself, maybe "haphazard" was the wrong word.

Don't worry; I'm not the sort of person who will try to nail you to the wall based on word choice. Unless perhaps in fun .

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

"Unpredictable" would be more like it.

I don't understand.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

*I plan on elaborating the starred part tomorrow.
There's also something potentially misleading about my posts that I should probably clear up, but later.

I look forward to your continuation.

~Lief

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

So, if I understand this, God made the dinasours, let them rule over earth for millions of years, and then at some point said, "I'm done with you, you tricked my Adam" and turned them all to snakes? Why did he create them in the first place? Was it just an experiment he was trying? If so, why did he made them "dumb"? Wouldn't this imply god is just a kid with a science kit? You will have to excuse my knowledge of the bible, I really don't know much about it. I do have some understanding of it though.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

If god created this painting we call earth, why did he stop there? Why isn't there life on the other planets in our solar system? did he put those there just for show? Like a background for his main theme, earth?

If I entered a cathedral, I might start pointing out all sorts of different parts of the architecture, saying, "why don't we just arrange them like this?" I don't have the engineering talent to understand the construction. So if we lack the engineering talent to understand the construction of a cathedral, why should we assume the super-intellect himself should be even easier to understand?

It's like saying, "I don't understand atomic physics, so I don't think there should be any atomic physicists."

We use light switches without understanding all the inner workings of the lamp technology. We can trust in God without knowing everything about him and all his plans for everything. He gives us what information we need.

Furthermore, if God explained everything to us immediately, that would leave nothing for our curiosity, would it? No more puzzles to work out. No more mysteries to plumb the depths of.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

It didn't just come from nowhere, it came from an explosion. Yeah, I'm a believer of The Big Bang Theory.

Yes, but (assuming the Big Bang; I'm still uncertain whether I believe in it or not) this still leaves the issue of the astronomical improbability that the Big Bang should produce something beautiful and most importantly, life sustaining.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

I understand the idea of how "7 days" could actually be longer. To use Tolkien as an example, and to try and help me explain what I'm trying to say , the idea of "days" is shorter for someone like a hobbit who isn't immortal, than an elf, who is. Does that make sense? I guess I should have put some apostrophes over the "7 days".

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Also I think it's that days signify complete units of time, complete periods that people are more accustomed and more capable of thinking in terms of than billions or millions of years.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

If humans were to take a creature from say, Austarilia, where they have lived for thousands of years, and place them in a strange environment, say, Cannada, (not that Canada is strange, well that's a different topic ) would god have to teach them how to adapt? Wouldn't this creature either learn themselves what's going on or parish?

Or God could help the creature. That's still a third possibility.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Sure, if they made it, some would say "God helped them". If they didn't they would say, "God chose not to help."
The same way some would say "They adapted and changed on their own.", or; "They didn't fair well and died."

What people say doesn't affect whether God did something or not. God may have taught the creature to adapt or he may not have. Whatever people say makes no difference, unless they are describing a miracle or some such that could not have occurred without divine intervention. Such as Moses striking the rock and water springing forth.

Evidence that God taught the creature to adapt might exist in knowing the probability that it could have survived on its own. Or eyewitness accounts of miracles might help. There might be other possibilities of evidence too.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

It's so hard to prove or disprove anything when it comes to this, but it sure is fun trying.

I agree .

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

There's a few other things you said that I want to touch on but I've been typing now for like 20 min and my poor fingers are getting tired. If you want you can address these things now and I'll come back to your other comments later.

I'll look forward to hearing them!

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

P. S. I guess i used to many smillies so I had to go back and erase some. LOL. Some were in your quotes, so i'm sorry. I just thought that you would understand your mood when writing them and someone who reads mine wouldn't.

Good plan.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

I took so long to post mine you guys have both posted already.

I'll have to go back and read 'em now.

*off he goes*

All this debating has kept me up very late. I'm going to clean out our guinea pig cage now and then probably go to bed. Talk to you and Bombadillo more later! It's been fun and intellectually stimulating.

~Lief

[Spock]

Flying Spaghetti Monster being published
From United Press International
March 27, 2006 2:42 PM EST
PHOENIX, Mar 27, 2006 (UPI via COMTEX) -- Pastafarianism is hitting the big time with a book on the Flying Spaghetti Monster ready to take its place in U.S. bookstores next to the Bible.

Bobby Henderson, who recently moved from Oregon to Arizona, created the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster last year during the height of arguments before the Kansas Board of Education over whether intelligent design should be taught as an alternative theory to evolution in schools.

The gospel includes the explanation that the Flying Spaghetti Monster made a few mistakes during the creation of the universe because he imbibed a bit much from heaven's beer volcano. And instead of amen, adherents say r'amen -- after the noodle dish.

"I wrote the letter (to the Kansas school board) for my own amusement as much as anything. And it totally snowballed. Some people say I'm going to hell," he told USA Today.

The gospels come out Tuesday in paperback.

[Jonathan]

I guess that's one way to make money on the Kansas debate

[Rían]

Ah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster! I'll have to dig up my Flying Babies story ...

Here's a couple of quick thoughts while I try to catch up with the thread:

First of all, the only being that could PROVE that God doesn't exist would, of course, have to be omniscient ...

Second: one day, I, as a Christian, will either KNOW that I'm right (if I'm right) or will NOT know if I'm wrong (if I'm wrong). Non-Christians will either KNOW they're wrong (if they're wrong), or will NOT know if they're right (if they're right)

I think that's pretty funny!

[Bombadillo]

Funny you should bring up Pastafarianism, because I just heard about it for the first time in school today coincidentally. Something about stripper factories and a beer volcano in heaven.

[Bombadillo]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Why?

Because I don't think that art requires an artist or a purpose and therefore nothing suggests an almighty creator to me. I shattered a jar of blue model paint all over the kitchen floor once by accident and it looked lovely. It didn't make me an artist, because I had no artistic intent.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Why?

Because they're so simple. That's what there was at the birth of the first sentient being, who knew nothing but recognized Sadism was bad and love was good. In the time between then and now, we've had to judge many many new developments good or bad, and many of these judgements were wrong, but established a context that we would use in later judgements. The result is society as we see it today: scary.

Consider abortion for example. Bad. Obviously, bad. How on earth could anyone justify killing their own unborn baby? Here's how: First, someone tells them "it isn't a person yet; it isn't born." (I don't know if that's accurate, but it sure doesn't matter, because putting an end to something that holds the promise of life is exactly the same as putting an end to a life.) Then, still unsure if society will accept them after they have an abortion, they are encouraged "it's your body; do what you want with it."

Things like that.

A related issue that I feel very strongly about is this "information age" that we're in. People have become so obsessed with the obtaining of information like obscure statistics of politics or sports records, and they're actually able to obtain this information with the click of a mouse, that there's no way they can process it all or prioritize any of it. The result is that we get too much information at once. Things start to seem so common to us that should really never be. I'm talking about desensitization. It sucks. It's important that we keep things simple. Killing is bad, and life is good. Anything in between doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I'm just saying it's obvious that what it means to be human is what it means to be sinful. They mean the same thing.

Then why not just say they're human and be done with it? Why say that Life is actually God? Life is life. People are people. Time is time. All these things would still exist and still make sense without God.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

But why lead to anything good? Just because it's fun? Not much of a reason.

We shouldn't need reasons for why we live or how we interact. But yes, goodness equals happiness and a good life is more fun than an evil one is.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

And what's the worth of that?

LOL! So there's irony there, but I'll answer also. If you believe there's nothing important in life, then you'll be doing lots and lots of nothing. Building patience and finding a way to keep your mind disciplined/entertained is absolutely essential.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Jesus' disciples were the eyewitnesses of his resurrection. [...] Therefore the disciples were people we know were willing to lay down their lives for something they must have known was true or a lie, and as people do not die for lies, they must have died for what was true.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Can you explain away a car driving sideways along a vertical cliff?

Possibly, the driver lied, exaggerated, or experienced that in a vivid but delusional prejection brought on by shock.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Or a young man climbing on an active electric fence without being harmed at all?

It might not have been turned on, something could have been interfering with the current, or you might have been wearing something like chain mail. (I saw a documentary on the guys who do the repairs to big high voltage power lines. They have to use themselves as a conductor, but somehow wearing glorified chainmail over a glorified wetsuit prevents them from getting fried.)

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

A woman who had at least two unavailing surgeries on her knees that had been causing her pain for years and who had to walk everywhere on a walker healed instantaneously by the power of prayer, and able to walk away carrying the walker on her shoulder?

This exerpt from my psychology notes might explain it.
conversion disorder- (Freud’s “hysteria,� or “neurotic conversion�) a person’ experiences a change in or loss of physical functioning for which there is no medical explanation
>Pilots who bombed North Korea at night often go completely blind at night now.
>treatment:
-psychotherapy where you’re taught what is wrong with you
-physical therapy of the bodypart affected
-exposure therapy where you are tricked into using your bad bodypart
-drug therapy which lessens the symptoms

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

A girl who was trapped underwater in a pool party becoming able to breathe underwater until she was helped out of the pool?

That could be explained in the same way the car miracle could, or the girl may never have had her mucus plugs (which allow for respiration in the womb somehow) removed from her nose and throat after birth. As far as I know, scientists have no clue if these would or would not help us breathe underwater.

All of the above explanations were off the top of my head (well, except the one that's right from my psych. notes), and by no means athoritative. I hate having to sound like I'm picking at straws because I generally resent hoax and conspiracy theories and such things for being so corny. Stranger things have happened, I'm sure, that I could never hope to explain.

I do know for sure though that water can come from desert stone sometimes. IIRC, it was discovered accidentally within the past several years when a guy was walking uphill in some sandy region and putting his weight on his staff. It broke through a thin layer of sandstone, which had apparently formed over many years over a slow underwater stream. Water gushed out and, I'd imagine, surprised him.

On prayer and the stigmata: In non-denominational meditation, a person attempts to join their mind, body, and spirit together into one self with nature. Quite often, they do it, and their awareness grows and transcends something. In prayer, this is also the goal, except the pray-er anticipates God, so when they reach that same new level of peace, they immediately claim that it was God they experienced. The more logical claim would be that they just reached a new record for relaxation, but they had their heart set on meeting God. The stigmata might be something similar to conversion disorder.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I don't understand.

Well, you thought that I think there's no order to life or to the world. That's not true. Everything plays out systematically. Its system is too complex to try to predict anything or say anything definately.

[Rían]

I think it's very interesting that here on earth, you can't prove God's existence, and you can't prove that He doesn't exist. See, the problem goes deeper than knowing if God exists or not. Adam and Eve knew he existed, yet they sinned...

Interesting post, Bomb - I'll have to re-read it tomorrow - too tired tonight...

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

you can't prove God's existence

But you can sure show a whale of a lot of evidence that he does.

I'll respond to your post on the morrow, Bombadillo! Thanks for a very decent reply .

And I'm really enjoying discussing these things with you too, Faramir.

[Rían]

Yes, I certainly agree there is a lot of evidence (as opposed to proof), that's why I'm a Christian. I believe the evidence falls strongly in favor of, first, the existence of a God, and second, that the God who exists is the one described in the Bible.

But I think it's interesting that it can't be proven ...

and I think one good outcome of this is that it makes people think ... which is good!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I'll respond to your post on the morrow, Bombadillo!

Forget that. Reading your post automatically got me intellectually involved, and then there's no chance I'd have been able to sleep anyway. So I'll send an at least partial response tonight.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Ah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster! I'll have to dig up my Flying Babies story ...

Here's a couple of quick thoughts while I try to catch up with the thread:

First of all, the only being that could PROVE that God doesn't exist would, of course, have to be omniscient ...

Second: one day, I, as a Christian, will either KNOW that I'm right (if I'm right) or will NOT know if I'm wrong (if I'm wrong). Non-Christians will either KNOW they're wrong (if they're wrong), or will NOT know if they're right (if they're right)

I think that's pretty funny!

The question is, could an omniscient being PROVE that God doesn't (or, for that matter, does) exist, or would he merely know it? Where's the syllogism?

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I'm enjoying our discussion too Lief.

I just wish I could put my thoughts into words as well as bombadillo does.

I still need to go back and respond to some of the earlier post of ours. I will get to it though. But...why I'm here I'd like to bring up some of the recent things you and Rian said.

Originally Posted by Rian

Yes, I certainly agree there is a lot of evidence (as opposed to proof), that's why I'm a Christian. I believe the evidence falls strongly in favor of, first, the existence of a God, and second, that the God who exists is the one described in the Bible.

Isn't all this "evidence" coming from the bible though? What if the bible was just a brilliantly written story where the "characters" were meant to inspire and bring a feeling of "peace" to the reader? Isnt' there a saying "Don't believe everything you read"?

Originally Posted by Liief Erikson

But you can sure show a whale of a lot of evidence that he does.

Again, wouldn't this "evidence" be derived from experiences from the bible? Why hasn't there been any of this in the last 1,000 years or so?(that'a a rough estimate) Is it that "God" has given up on us? Are we just not listening?

[Bombadillo]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I look forward to your continuation.

~Lief

Cool!

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Worthless, pointless? Still, I guess so. But while I exist, I might as well make it a happy existence. Happy meaning full of smiles and platonian good. That's the least I could do. But that's dangerously boring.* So I also try to spread goodness to other people. It probably doesn't matter. Destructive attitudes probably don't matter either, but destroying things all the time is less fun and never leads to anything good.
[. . .]
*I plan on elaborating the starred part tomorrow.
There's also something potentially misleading about my posts that I should probably clear up, but later.

*Existing just to exist is very tedious, and I think most people avoid that by searching for a purpose and then clinging to it. Most often, it's some sort of religion that supplies them with it. I've come by many a Christian catchphrase, for example, that says something to the effect of "Did your sins come back and bite you in the ass? Pray. God will help you and he'll make your life better. I promise. Just don't try to recover on your own. No one can do it without God's help. Your past failures should prove that to you." I happen to have more faith in the strength of the human race, and I think Christians give God a lot of credit that nobody deserves. Things solve themselves. Keeping that in mind keeps me remarkably, unbelievably mellow.

But where was I? Right, I guess I can understand why nihilism is so depressing now that I'm writing about it. When you realize that everything is pointless, you grow very lazy and literally just wait for death, understanding that there's nothing else of substance to do. This is where the boredom gets dangerous. You begin to wonder if the wait is worth it, or if you should kill yourself. I think most people at this point snap. They could go totally bonkers, and perhaps, but not necessarily, actually commit suicide. Or, they might retreat back to religion and force themselves to forget what a horrid experience that was thinking outside the box.

I thought perhaps my seemingly contradictory messages of "nothing matters" and "it's important to be good" would need explanation. It seems like only a matter of time before someone points them out anyway. Well, I just explained the danger of living with "nothing matters" as a motto. To avoid the temptation of suicide, you have to do something with your life. Even if you know there's nothing for it, you must occupy your mind. Basically, you have two choices: good stuff and bad stuff. Seeing as good stuff brings more lasting happiness and stability, I think that's the way to go. And you don't need a God to walk that path either.

EDIT: Big-time cross-post again.
But I learned my lesson. From now on I'm gonna use Word to write such long replies.
*goes back and reads missed posts*

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Isn't all this "evidence" coming from the bible though?

Nope! Though some of it is, and for various reasons I could prove to you why it's reliable.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

What if the bible was just a brilliantly written story where the "characters" were meant to inspire and bring a feeling of "peace" to the reader? Isnt' there a saying "Don't believe everything you read"?

Absolutely, and good point. There is a lot of evidence though that it is an accurate, historical account. It'd take me a long time to get through the most important points . I'll have to save responding to this for later.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Again, wouldn't this "evidence" be derived from experiences from the bible? Why hasn't there been any of this in the last 1,000 years or so?(that'a a rough estimate) Is it that "God" has given up on us? Are we just not listening?

There has been lots of this in the last 2,000 years. The experiences haven't gone away. They're actually moving more strongly than ever right now.

It'll take a very long time to do your post justice. You ask such critically important, really good questions; those questions are absolutely essentially important. This one I will have to save for tomorrow.

Perhaps RÃ*an can do better than me at being concise.

[Bombadillo]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I'll respond to your post on the morrow, Bombadillo! Thanks for a very decent reply .

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Forget that. Reading your post automatically got me intellectually involved, and then there's no chance I'd have been able to sleep anyway. So I'll send an at least partial response tonight.

LMAO!

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

I'm enjoying our discussion too Lief.

I just wish I could put my thoughts into words as well as bombadillo does.

Just don't start thinking that it's easy for me! I rarely get involved in these thread because I wind up putting so much time and effort into them that it's usually not worthwhile. It's just that I've been thinking about all this for quite a while now, and the moot is the best place for me to look at it all together and critiqued.

EDIT:I must retire. I wish I could stay up to participate, esspecially while reactions to my posts are being typed up, but you know how it is when school starts in six hours.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I got 100% Chalcedonian. Good boy, pongo.

Did you see the Calvinist v. Arminian quiz? Responses were funny as I'll get out.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I rarely get involved in these thread because I wind up putting so much time and effort into them that it's usually not worthwhile. It's just that I've been thinking about all this for quite a while now, and the moot is the best place for me to look at it all together and critiqued.

I feel the same way. Learning from people debating with me on these threads is so, so educational . That's one of the things I really enjoy about it.




. . . I'm still working on my response .