Homosexual marriage

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I'm afraid that if you want me to read anymore articles you are going to have to start the discussion. I just can't get motivated if the original poster of an article doesn't start off the discussion with some relevant comment or a synopsis of key points.

I'm not doing all the work for you!

Yeah, he does that all the time. Drives me up the wall, too, but whaddayagonna do?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Yeah, he does that all the time. Drives me up the wall, too, but whaddayagonna do?

Haha. Sorry Inked, but I'm not doing your links anymore (unless you do too).

Ah what the heck, one last one.

Originally Posted by inked

Interesting agenda, but the heterosexuals gotta work it out without the GLBT's 'cause we're gettting tired:

http://descant.classicalanglican.net/?p=1398

The linked article is long from the above site which hits the gay points only.

I'm not going to comment too much because Spock did point out this is a separate subject, but yes, polygamy is a seperate issue.

Legalising gay marriage doesn't set any precedents except that the definition of marriage can change over time.

There was this hilarious sketch on the Royal Canadian Air Farce the other night about traditional marriage. It starts out with the husband (who has a wife and two kids in the background) talking about traditional families and traditional marriage, which is between a man and a woman... of the same race. Awesome.

[Nurvingiel]

I just noticed that my previous post didn't update the thread.

[Count Comfect]

Originally Posted by The Article Inked Says Has Data

Eskridge lightly glosses over the fact that the Homosexual Cohabitation Act of 1987 was directly tied to a major legislative equalization of heterosexual cohabitation and marriage.
...
So the most radical equalization of marriage and cohabitation in Swedish history was directly connected to the first same-sex partnership legislation in world history. The cultural message is clear: Marriage is little different from either heterosexual or homosexual cohabitation

Here's the problem: I don't see these as necessarily linked anywhere but in Swedish law. I agree that marriage and cohabitation should not be equal; but I don't agree that that means gays should not be allowed to marry. He's conflating the two arguments. Especially since no one is arguing the cohabitation/marriage issue here in the US, even if they did in Sweden, this is disingenuous at best.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Since when is France the world's political compass? I mean, who thinks that?

Canada is, in case anyone's curious.

I'm afraid that if you want me to read anymore articles (I just did your PM one and analyzed it with reasonable detail), you are going to have to start the discussion. I just can't get motivated if the original poster of an article doesn't start off the discussion with some relevant comment or a synopsis of key points.

I'm not doing all the work for you!


Edited because the Reduncancy Department of Reduncancy called and they want their redundancy back.

O, golly, Nurv! The Nords are falling apart as a society in regard to family and the French don't want to go that way. What do you have to do besides read articles anyway? You study?

And, any synopsis I put gets the haggard old stand-by responses of knee jerks to me, not the data.

I can't win! So, never give in to defeat (to paraphrase Sir Winston) - keep on sloggin'.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

Here's the problem: I don't see these as necessarily linked anywhere but in Swedish law. I agree that marriage and cohabitation should not be equal; but I don't agree that that means gays should not be allowed to marry. He's conflating the two arguments. Especially since no one is arguing the cohabitation/marriage issue here in the US, even if they did in Sweden, this is disingenuous at best.

Thanks for your input, Count.

I thought they were trying to link the two a little too tightly myself. But, do you think the general argument is trending correctly - not that gay marriage caused social breakdown but is a symptom of that same process. A red flag, as it were, if not proximate cause?

[inked]

found this one under the heading PIMPING FOR SAURON (pretty clever, that)

www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/may/06050409.html

What would Tolkien have said on the subject, well, here's a good idea.

[Count Comfect]

Originally Posted by inked

But, do you think the general argument is trending correctly - not that gay marriage caused social breakdown but is a symptom of that same process. A red flag, as it were, if not proximate cause?

I don't think that's a correct conclusion... I feel like extensive cohabitation is a red flag, if not a proximate cause of social breakdown, but I don't feel the argument about gay marriage is proven outside of its link (in Swedish law) to cohabitation.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

O, golly, Nurv! The Nords are falling apart as a society in regard to family and the French don't want to go that way. What do you have to do besides read articles anyway? You study?

And, any synopsis I put gets the haggard old stand-by responses of knee jerks to me, not the data.

I can't win! So, never give in to defeat (to paraphrase Sir Winston) - keep on sloggin'.

Sweden is falling apart? I went there last year and I can assure you, Sweden is doing just fine.

I actually do study, incidentally, so there. If I was posting regularly at Entmoot, I would give any synopsis or analysis you put forth thoughtful consideration and not dismiss it out of hand, but I am very busy this summer and I probably won't be posting a lot.

Canada has legalised gay marriage federally and now it's up to the provinces to put the law in place (I don't really get how this works, exactly). BC has legalised gay marriage, as has Quebec, Ontario, and a number of other provinces. I can tell you that the biggest problems in BC - Olympic budget overruns and Mountain Pine Beetle, are not caused by gay people now being allowed to marry. Nor is this a proximate cause of problems we face here. If you want a good case study about the effect of gay marriage on society, BC would be a good place to look at.

Wait a some years and observe the long-term effect - I think it will be positive.

Recently we've added affairs with someone of the same gender as grounds for immediate divorce. After all, a relationship between a gay couple is just as valid as a relationship between a straight couple.

edited to add: also, Nord isn't a word. Maybe you were thinking Scandinavian? (This would include Norway, Denmark, and Finland as well.)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I believe that Nord is in fact an old word for the races from Scandinavia.

[Whispering Willow]

If so, this "Nord" has never heard of it. You may be thinking of "norse" which describes things relating to Scandinavia.

--

Oh, and since I found my way into this thread I might as well add that I am all for same-sex marriages.

[Radagast The Brown]

"Nordic" means anything relating to Scandinavia as well, I suppose he meant that...

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by inked

O, golly, Nurv! The Nords are falling apart as a society in regard to family and the French don't want to go that way. What do you have to do besides read articles anyway? You study?

On average, teens in the U.S. start having sex earlier, and have more partners, pregnancies, and sexually transmitted diseases than their counterparts in other developed countries where comprehensive sex education and easy access to contraception are common. American teen-aged girls are four times more likely to get pregnant than teens in France, five times more likely than girls in Germany, and nine times more likely than their counterparts in the Netherlands. Gonorrhea is far more frequent among U.S. teens than among French, Dutch, or German teens, and HIV infection rates for U.S. teens are 50 percent higher than among their European counterparts. Western European teens also have fewer abortions because they begin with fewer unwanted pregnancies.

http://www.ascribe.org

New fully comparable figures on child poverty across the industrialized world and the 50 United States show a huge disparity from country to country and state to state. While Sweden leads the world with only 2.4 percent child poverty, New York State, at 26.3 percent, ranks last in the industrialized world – behind Italy at 19.3 percent, the closest OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development) nation.
........
Overall, the U.S., with 20.3 percent child poverty, ranks behind all European nations.

And almost 2 1/2 times the infant mortality rate of Sweden.

If that's "falling apart as a society in regard to family" maybe you should try some?

[GreyMouser]

Mistah Kurtz, him dead

Despite what Kurtz might say, the apocalypse has not yet arrived. In fact, the numbers show that heterosexual marriage looks pretty healthy in Scandinavia, where same-sex couples have had rights the longest. In Denmark, for example, the marriage rate had been declining for a half-century but turned around in the early 1980s. After the 1989 passage of the registered-partner law, the marriage rate continued to climb; Danish heterosexual marriage rates are now the highest they've been since the early 1970's. And the most recent marriage rates in Sweden, Norway, and Iceland are all higher than the rates for the years before the partner laws were passed. Furthermore, in the 1990s, divorce rates in Scandinavia remained basically unchanged.

Of course, the good news about marriage rates is bad news for Kurtz's sky-is-falling argument. So, Kurtz instead focuses on the increasing tendency in Europe for couples to have children out of wedlock. Gay marriage, he argues, is a wedge that is prying marriage and parenthood apart.

The main evidence Kurtz points to is the increase in cohabitation rates among unmarried heterosexual couples and the increase in births to unmarried mothers. Roughly half of all children in Norway, Sweden, and Denmark are now born to unmarried parents. In Denmark, the number of cohabiting couples with children rose by 25 percent in the 1990s. From these statistics Kurtz concludes that " … married parenthood has become a minority phenomenon," and—surprise—he blames gay marriage.

But Kurtz's interpretation of the statistics is incorrect. Parenthood within marriage is still the norm—most cohabitating couples marry after they start having children. In Sweden, for instance, 70 percent of cohabiters wed after their first child is born. Indeed, in Scandinavia the majority of families with children are headed by married parents. In Denmark and Norway, roughly four out of five couples with children were married in 2003. In the Netherlands, a bit south of Scandinavia, 90 percent of heterosexual couples with kids are married.
......
<snip> more stats<snip>

No matter how you slice the demographic data, rates of nonmarital births and cohabitation do not increase as a result of the passage of laws that give same-sex partners the right to registered partnership. To put it simply: Giving gay couples rights does not inexplicably cause heterosexuals to flee marriage, as Kurtz would have us believe.

http://www.slate.com/id/2100884/
Did gay marriage destroy marriage in Scandinavia? By M.V. Lee Badgett

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by inked

found this one under the heading PIMPING FOR SAURON (pretty clever, that)

Well, if you equate someone wishing to marry their beloved with being a pimp, I suppose...

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

If that's "falling apart as a society in regard to family" maybe you should try some?

* High five *

The emphasis some "Christians" put on gay marriage above child poverty and social exclusion provides a continuing source of bafflement.

No change there then, back to the studio.

[Whispering Willow]

I can't really picture hetero couples in love who go: "Honey, maybe we should get marr.. oh no wait. The gays can do that now. Gee, there's no point then..."

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Whispering Willow

If so, this "Nord" has never heard of it. You may be thinking of "norse" which describes things relating to Scandinavia.

--

Oh, and since I found my way into this thread I might as well add that I am all for same-sex marriages.

Well, it is archaic. I have heard the word, but I don't know if it was just extrapolated from "Norse" (though as I hear Nord used, it is a noun, not an adjective).

EDIT:

According to wiki, it is a word, meaning people of Norway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord

The emphasis some "Christians" put on gay marriage above child poverty and social exclusion provides a continuing source of bafflement.

As I recall, Gaffer, you are an atheist/agnostic; is that correct? If not, my apologies for the confusion. If so, then what exactly is it that you believe qualifies you to call into question our Christianity?

[Whispering Willow]

[nit-picking]Wiki is a bit off. One can say "nordmenn", but not just nord(s). [/nit-picking]

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

The emphasis some "Christians" put on gay marriage above child poverty and social exclusion provides a continuing source of bafflement.

I'd like to ask the obnoxious, hate-sign-holding "Christians" how much money and time they invest into child poverty. And ditto for the obnoxious, hate-sign-holding gay activists, btw. But please don't judge the masses by the obnoxious ones - I think a lot of why you see gay marriage in the news is because it involves voting and changing laws. One can work against child poverty (like we do) and not get in the news.