10-07-2008, 05:37 PM | #301 |
Elven Maiden
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Oh noes! Not the problem of evil!!
There are a lot of really good explanations of why there has to be evil in the world. However, I agree with Ivan and Alyosha on this one: Ivan: "Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end, giving them peace and rest at last, but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature-that baby beating its breast with its fist, for instance-and to found that edifice on its unavenged tears, would you consent to be the architect of those conditions? Tell me, and tell the truth." "No, I wouldn't consent," said Alyosha softly. |
10-07-2008, 05:44 PM | #302 | |
Elven Warrior
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...Ambition never is in a greater hurry that I; it merely keeps pace with circumstances and with my general way of thinking... Vive l'Empereur! Now and for always... Elizabeth Ann Roger |
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10-07-2008, 05:47 PM | #303 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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This doesn't prove the existence of God per se, it merely proves the existence of an uncaused cause. One can say that the uncaused cause is God, that it is the universe, or that it is their Cousin Ted. But there must be something which is uncaused, and thus, has always been. Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-07-2008, 05:49 PM | #304 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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No, not really. The question has little to no relevance to the rest of the thread, and is simply Catholic Apologetics 101 coming into play. Apologetics and theology are two very, very different things.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
10-07-2008, 05:49 PM | #305 |
Elven Maiden
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Oh I'm sorry EAR! I wrote a reply to that but I didn't post it because I realized there was still another page I hadn't read yet. Anyway I was going to say something like this...
It's true that at the time of the Reformation, the Catholic church was pretty much the church, but there were a lot of different kinds of Christianity before that that all got more or less put together into one. The Catholic church is in a lot of ways different from early Christianity, and I think the reform was party about going back to it, so you could say Protestantism pre-dates Christianity (you could, it wouldn't be accurate but in a way it makes sense). There were some things the Catholic church was doing that it seems to have invented, like purgatory and indulgences. Do you know about indulgences? I think it's one of the strangest ideas I've ever heard. |
10-07-2008, 05:59 PM | #306 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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As for Purgatory, it can be found in one form or another throughout the history of the Church. By no means can it be considered a clerical invention of the middle ages. The belief in and use of indulgences is merely an application of that belief with the promises of Christ to St. Peter, "Whatever you bind on earth, is bound in heaven, and Whatever you loose on Earth, is loosed in heaven." The only Protestant body which you could really make any sort of argument at all of its resembling early Christianity more than Catholicism is the
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-07-2008, 06:04 PM | #307 |
Elven Maiden
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I know, it wasn't the only church (that's why I said pretty much), but it existed and Protestantism didn't, anyway. As for purgatory, what I mean is is it in the scriptures? Did Christ mention it? My mistake on using "invented", that was just the impression I got. What I was trying to say was that the Catholic church wasn't the first and only (up until the Reformation), and that Luther and co. and anyone else who broke away from the Catholic church might well have good reason to do so.
Last edited by katya : 10-07-2008 at 06:05 PM. |
10-07-2008, 06:08 PM | #308 | |
Elf Lord
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Not that generalizations and expatiation are all bad, but I have a broken wrist and typing is a pain literally, so help........
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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10-07-2008, 06:27 PM | #309 | |
Elf Lord
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This is not to belabor the Christian or non-Christian point at all, more the religious approach versus the materialist approach. So, at the risk of being misunderstood, I think that what GW was pointing towards was the nature of religious belief which assumed a creator or creative process from *outside* the material world and that for such the question was regarded as nonsensical or silly. Now there are religions which place matter first with the gods arising from this matter. But those religions do not ask where matter arises per se. I think they would have a great deal of difficulty with the big bang evidence since it would point to an obvious beginning of matter. I do not know how they reply to that data. I'm not trying to quibble, just pointing out that we cannot make the assumption that all religions believe the same thing about the origin of the universe or beginnings as a matter of course. Then we need to distinguish that from the strictly materialistic world view. The latter is more popular at the moment in our Western postmodern culture but it is not at all the dominant paradigm for most humans and for most of history. Therefore the proof of the materialist viewpoint is required as it opposes the human experience as generally historically and currently reported. This viewpoint is every bit as religious in its foundational philosophical assumptions as the most primitive religion. We sometimes forget these distinctions need to be made and it contributes to the somewhat confused discussions about these issues.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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10-07-2008, 06:37 PM | #310 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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[EDIT to add: missed your post the first time around, Inked, I see your point.]
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We are not things. |
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10-07-2008, 07:42 PM | #311 |
Elven Warrior
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Oh yes, I know about it. We've been taught it at school for a long time. Unfortuantly, since the pope doesn't know everything, it was used for raising money. Send 100 dollars and you won't go to hell. Now its more prayers and getting yourself closer to Christ, which I believe, is the right way. It was indulgences that built some of the beautiful chruches in Rome. Sad, but true. I won't deny that my faith sometimes curves for the worse...
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...Ambition never is in a greater hurry that I; it merely keeps pace with circumstances and with my general way of thinking... Vive l'Empereur! Now and for always... Elizabeth Ann Roger |
10-07-2008, 09:03 PM | #312 |
Elf Lord
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EAR, Gwai posted the answer to your question. There are a number of churches besides the RC church that date back to the same time.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
10-07-2008, 11:17 PM | #313 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Gwaimir's logic makes sense. Quote:
There still would have to be something, be it a law or energy or something of some kind, and for that something to exist, there would have to be something even earlier which caused it to exist (or a reason for its existence), and so on. You have to believe in some kind of eternal creating force (whether intelligent or otherwise). Katya, Purgatory is in the Bible, and it also is in Early Church Tradition right from the beginning. It was a belief the Christians inherited from the Jews of Israel before them. Here's a link with Early Church references to Purgatory: http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_purgatory.htm There also are several Biblical references to Purgatory, many implicit and some explicit. I don't have time at the moment to get them for you, but you can find a lot of them by googling online. 1 Peter 3 includes a reference to Jesus preaching to the dead- that's one instance. 2 Maccabees also has an explicit one. I can get you the material later.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-07-2008 at 11:18 PM. |
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10-07-2008, 11:24 PM | #314 |
Elven Maiden
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After a quick search, Lief, I found that there weren't really explicit references to purgatory, nor is it mentioned by name, but there are scriptures that point to it. That's pretty much what I thought. Is that right? Google definitely seems to indicate that it's a generally Catholic thing though. Whether it existed from the beginning of Christianity I'm not sure but I don't think indulgences did. Don't quote me though. (I mean, quote me in the Entmoot sense if you want... you know what I mean )
No one responded to my #301 post. :[ I'm curious what people think. |
10-08-2008, 01:23 AM | #315 | ||
Elf Lord
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I provided a pack of quotations in that other link, which show that the Early Church believed in Purgatory. The word "Purgatory" is not used in the scripture, but the concept is clearly present in the minds of the writers in several passages. Matthew 12:23 describes a sin that will neither be forgiven in this life nor in the age to come, which suggests that sins may be forgiven after death. Which is central to the concept of Purgatory. 1 Corinthians 15:29 refers to baptisms carried out on behalf of the dead. If it's on their behalf, they benefit from it. If they benefit from it, they aren't in Heaven or Hell- Purgatory is the logical explanation. These last two I mentioned are implicit references, passages that really make the best sense in the context of the belief in Purgatory. I think 2 Maccabees and 1 Peter are explicit, though. There are other scripture passages also that refer to Purgatory, besides these. In addition to Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox Christians offer prayers for the dead. The Eastern Orthodox Christians and Catholics combined are about 3/4 of the world's Christians, so a large majority of believers worldwide acknowledge the reality of Purgatory. Indulgences, like Gwaimir said, were an application of Papal authority to give dispensation from penance. When Jesus gave Peter the keys over heaven and earth, he gave him and his successors the authority to make decisions about indulgences for the Church. Also, there are various scriptures supporting the concept of indulgences, such as the Book of Sirach(or Tobit?)'s comment that charity avails much for the forgiveness of sins. The Book of James says something similar, if I recall correctly. There were scriptural precedents, though "indulgences" as such weren't applied in the Church before the Reformation era, to my knowledge. Anyway, the Reformers' big objections at the time were largely centered on a few areas where the concept of indulgences was being abused. For instance, in one place, a bishop, I believe, supported an architect who was fundraising for a cathedral in his statements that indulgences could be used to reduce the time souls spent in Purgatory- an awful misrepresentation of the purpose of the practice. That was a money-making abuse. There were also times when clergy would pressure people to give to the Church. So there were abuses, and the big objections were often to the abuse of the practice of indulgences, not the concept itself or its normal application in Europe. Quote:
My view is that God did not create evil, but rather he created the possibility of evil by creating free will.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-08-2008 at 01:51 AM. |
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10-08-2008, 01:36 AM | #316 | |
Elf Lord
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The Protestant removal of Catholic "additions" tend to be the removal of ancient Early Church doctrines and interpretations of Scripture. I read in a book a while ago about 200 Protestant evangelical leaders who all joined the Eastern Orthodox Church simultaneously. They did that because they were seeking hard after Early Church's doctrine, and through careful research into the writings of the Early Church, they became convinced that the Orthodox were fully practicing the beliefs of the Early Church. The serious difference between us Catholics and them is Papal authority- the main thing in their research that they seem to have gotten wrong. Also pretty much the only serious thing the Orthodox have gotten wrong, at least to my knowledge. Papal authority is the main difference between Catholics and the Orthodox. Anyway, those 200 men were seeking the practice of the Early Church and it led them back to the truly ancient traditions the Protestant Reformers worked hard to dismantle.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-08-2008, 03:02 AM | #317 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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What I said in the post you challenged was not intended to be a powerful case for Christianity. It was a few points of parallel between the world's development and the Incarnation of the world's fulfillment. If I was trying to prove, I'd rely on much stronger stuff. You still haven't responded effectively to my posts about Zeitoun or Fatima, or to the eyewitness testimony about Christ, or my material supporting the reliability of the New Testament, or the prophetic Old Testament evidence, or any of the scientifically verifiable miraculous signs I provided links to. Quote:
"Had the beloved Catholic Church had its way you wouldn't possibly know what outer space and the wider Universe looked like. Ironic!" "Conclusion: We all exist for the pleasure of a God... How fulfilling" The tone of those comments really didn't suggest to me you were after serious discussion. However, I do prefer your way of rephrasing them just now, so I'll respond. Quote:
Also, Galileo was brought to trial for asserting his views as certain fact rather than hypothesis. The technology of the time did not allow for strong verification of some of his assertions, and astronomers of his time were able to prove that portions of the evidence he drew upon to make his case (such as his argument that the sun caused the tides) were bogus. Institutions of that time had different methods from our current nations of trying to restrict misinformation. Galileo was also brought to court because he wrote a work insulting the Pope very sharply. Galileo was not tortured. Nor was he deemed a heretic. His writings about the Pope and asserting his hypotheses as fact were deemed dangerous. Galileo spent time under house arrest (a very nice house too), and he remained in full communion with the Church he loved. He too was a devout Catholic. The principle funder of the sciences in that era was also the Church. They were far from anti-science and if it wasn't for their support of the sciences, and for the efforts of Catholic scientists, many of the current pillars of science would not have been discovered. He is eternal and uncreated. We've actually been having a bit of a discussion of that recently with Eärniel. Quote:
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This structure of life on Planet Earth could be compared to a human body. The human body is composed of living cells, primitive forms of life, yet the person we think of as the human is the culmination of these primitive identities and has a rational nature (or somewhat so) that rules all the primitive parts, living and nonliving, that make up its body. Quote:
Would you mind if I prayed that for you?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-08-2008 at 03:20 AM. |
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10-08-2008, 08:58 AM | #318 | |
Elven Maiden
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All I was trying to say is that Catholicism has changed since the beginning of Christianity, that Protestantism isn't trying to add things to it but trying to go back to the early Christianity, and that there were a lot of other types of Christianity floating around in the early days too. I'm not a Protestant, you know. If I had to chose one or the other it'd probably be Catholic. I'm not trying to argue against purgatory either, I just really don't think it's that explicit or clear-cut. So just forget I said anything.
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Sorry if I'm grumpy this morning. I am kind of stressed out and also I just woke up. |
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10-08-2008, 11:01 AM | #319 |
Elf Lord
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I hope you start feeling better soon .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
10-10-2008, 08:52 AM | #320 | |
Quasi Evil
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Remember evolution just allows for traits that benefit an organism at a given time. Its not about trying to piece together a human... Evolution is a sieve that allows some few traits to pass through and accumulate while filtering out others. And the success of the traits is completely dependent on circumstances. And you will find that it is not the "mighty" human who is king of this world. We are in fact in total dependence on other much simpler creatures that have existed in the same form for MUCH longer than we have been around. Plants. Insects. Plankton. Microscopic one celled animals that create the necessary conditions for us to thrive. These are the creatures that dominate this world and call the shots. Just because bacteria cannot build a building or compose a sonnet does not mean they have not been enormously successful. They have existed in countless numbers for over a billion years on this planet. And there is nothing we can do to wipe them out whereas they could easily be the cause of our destruction. Dont fall for the logic trap of thinking that humans are the crowning glory of the evolution of life on earth or the top of some misguided pyramid of life. We are a short link in the long complicated chain of evolutionary history of this planet. Its the little things that rule this world. And big creatures such as ourselves ride their coat tails toward success or failure as a species.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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