10-14-2008, 10:30 PM | #301 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I wonder what percentage of babies are aborted because of birth defects. I imagine it's pretty small.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-15-2008, 01:04 AM | #302 | |
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edit: Though "birth defects" can't rightly be called so unless the child is actually born
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10-15-2008, 01:07 AM | #303 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yes - but no one has ethical problems with spontaneous abortions
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-15-2008, 01:50 PM | #304 | |
Quasi Evil
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The problem is theres way too many pro lifers who are inconsistent about killing. And are hypocritical about defending the rights of the unborn while doing little or nothing about the situation of the potential mother. They protest then go home and carry on with their lives then get upset when teenagers see no alternative to abortion. And of course too many pro lifers choose to use a developmental argument when in their heart that has nothing to do with why they believe the way they believe.
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10-15-2008, 11:15 PM | #305 |
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I don't see that it's a problem for me to have more than one thing (for instance, an idea based on a belief system, and a judgment made by observation) that aid me in forming an opinion. Nor should it be a problem if while the aspect that means the most to me might be what comes from my belief system, that I choose to make some arguments based instead on observation.
Not all would agree with my belief that human life begins at conception. However - when someone looks at the progression of fetal development, most will settle on a point when they have to admit (if only inwardly) that - yes, that indeed looks like a person - and we probably shouldn't be killing them. Some may settle on 13 weeks, some 10 weeks, some 6 weeks. But in each case, if they've moved off of believing in abortion at any time in the course of a pregnancy, they have moved in the right direction and exercised sound judgment and proper reason. They're making themselves more informed and basing a changed decision on having gathered additional, factual information.
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10-16-2008, 11:45 AM | #306 |
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IR,
"The problem is theres way too many pro lifers who are inconsistent about killing. And are hypocritical about defending the rights of the unborn while doing little or nothing about the situation of the potential mother. They protest then go home and carry on with their lives then get upset when teenagers see no alternative to abortion. And of course too many pro lifers choose to use a developmental argument when in their heart that has nothing to do with why they believe the way they believe." Check into your yellow pages under ABORTION ALTERNATIVES and you might be surprised at what is being done for the mothers and their in utero and ex utero infants. What do you mean "inconsistent about killing"? There are a number of arguments against abortion, are you saying that no pro-lifer can use any of them except "It's wrong because I say it is wrong"? I am not quite following you here.
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10-16-2008, 01:29 PM | #307 | ||
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If I said we need to allow abortions because I believe a womans right to choose trumps all other factors and Oh! Yeah! The baby doesn’t have a spinal chord yet either! I would be just as disingenuous in my argument (although I don’t think the emotional appeal would be as strong as “looks like a person”).
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10-16-2008, 01:56 PM | #308 | |||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-16-2008, 02:12 PM | #309 |
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So IR, what is your stance?
Are you for abortion on the grounds that it is a right of a woman to choose? Or do you believe that after a period in the developmental stage that abortion is not permissible? Or do you support abortion only during extreme circumstances like rape?
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10-16-2008, 02:53 PM | #310 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-16-2008, 03:07 PM | #311 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-16-2008, 03:14 PM | #312 | |
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Meanwhile we can say that its much more likely that forcing an impoverished 13 year old to bring a child in the world who is in no position to do so will lead to a life of hardship for the child. Yes there is that potential they will defy the odds but most wont. And in these cases something as sad as abortion may be the least worse alternative. So to ban one side from aborting a fetus by citing potential and allowing another side to take a life despite potential seems like a double standard to me. Consistency would be life for both. In the case of the prisoner it would be life in prison but life. Not death…
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-16-2008, 03:26 PM | #313 |
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I think the choice aspect DOES matter. I think that part of the objection against abortion includes the fact that the baby has done nothing wrong - it is an innocent at this point in time, and our society goes with "live and let live" unless the person has CHOSEN to do something so awful that society needs to apply a consequence.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-16-2008, 05:48 PM | #314 |
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I think the choice aspect does matter too. It's possible to say killing is ok in some circumstances and not in others. I, however, think abortion might be one of those times when it's ok (if not ok then the lesser of two evils), and capital punishment is not. If you think about that in terms of innocence only then it seems backwards, but not if you think about it in terms of how much harm will come out of it. Death row inmates have a developed sense of self, people who care about them, and I don't think anyone has the right to judge whether someone is evil or deserves to die. (I don't think aborted fetuses "deserve" to die either, but I think children "deserve" the best upbringing possible by parents who love and want them, and that women "deserve" to be able to make choices about their lives.)
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10-17-2008, 06:28 AM | #315 | ||
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Although I think modern medicine should be a guideline as to when it is inadvisable to perform an abortion, the one consistent way to be pro-abortion is to hand the right to choose to the woman. It's her choice and no one but her has final say. If you don't pursue that line of reasoning you thread into a relativist ground which tears to shreds the notion of absolute sovereignty over one's own body, with inherent rights. That's my take on it. You have to be consistent and say no, that line you can't cross, you can't decide for a woman. It's her call. I understand the strongest argument from the pro-lifers, that you are taking life. But listen, although it is a life, it is a life inside another life. It isn't independent. It's part of the sovereign body of another life, which you can't violate. It's unfair, but it's necessary.
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10-17-2008, 10:18 AM | #316 | |
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In fact, it seems to me, that the anti-choice folks would like to apply consequences to the behavior of 'having sex when you aren't completely sure you want to have a baby right now', which is, truly, not so awful.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-17-2008, 11:13 AM | #317 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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That "awful" comment was in reference to the death penalty.
But anyway, I'd say that we certainly have a live-and-let-live policy overall.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-17-2008, 11:23 AM | #318 | |
Elf Lord
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Where does the 'live and let live" aspect begin?
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-17-2008, 11:40 AM | #319 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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to go out into some civilization-forsaken forest and live some utopic dream in nudity and taxlessness. It comes at a cost of course, but it's fully possible (though maybe not in your own state, but at least in some part of the country!), but it ain't easy. To be frank I'm not too sure what is meant by "live and let live" in relation to abortion (English-not-being-my-mother-tongue-reality shoots in!). Anyone care to enlighten me?
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10-17-2008, 01:24 PM | #320 | |
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I wonder if a god would really have in mind the death of one man and the imprisonment of his killer which then leads to the killers redemption and living a life of good works only to have him killed as he is finally fulfilling his potential. That doesn’t make sense to me under any kind of religious logic Im aware of.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 10-17-2008 at 01:26 PM. |
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