04-27-2006, 04:28 PM | #301 |
Elf Lord
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GW,
As you see, the truly unpardonable sin is being "not" liberal - however the newspeakers define it on any given day. Smoking does come in a close second, however, if it is tobacco. Other substances are to be legalized, remember, by the oppressive conservative majority so as to enter the enlightenment of that particular liberal value. And so on through as many changes as one can ring until reality sets in and the laughter interrupts the liberal process for sheer absurdity.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 04-27-2006 at 04:29 PM. |
04-27-2006, 04:51 PM | #302 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Liberal basically means everything is open to discussion and change is a good thing.
Conservative basically means everything should be based upon traditional values and change, while sometimes necessary, is usually resisted. Most, if not all, people are both depending upon the situation. So it's a mostly useless stereotype to label a individual with. Unless you have ulterior motives, of course.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
04-27-2006, 05:48 PM | #303 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I was referring to what I've observed over the years in the US, and especially the last 5 or so years, about how LOCs (Loud Obnoxious Conservatives) usually refer to those who disagree with them, as opposed to how LOLs (Loud Obnoxious Liberals) usually do. (I'm not saying all LOLs do this, but it's the LOLs that I usually hear and read about.) I've noticed that when LOCs talk about someone that disagrees with their POV, they often refer to the disagreer as "wrong" and then give info/analysis to support their point. OTOH, all too often when LOLs talk about someone that disagrees with their POV, they just dismiss the disagreer as "stupid" and think that seals it. The former gives dignity to the disagreer (it implies that they are capable of thought and consideration, but their conclusion is wrong because of lack of info); the latter, to me, is just really insulting and implies that the disagreer isn't even capable of rational thought. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-28-2006 at 02:13 AM. |
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04-28-2006, 02:15 AM | #304 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-28-2006, 04:04 AM | #305 | |||
Elf Lord
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So, it's just another example of "see what these liberal fascists are up to now" sensationalism. Quote:
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04-28-2006, 10:12 AM | #306 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Conservatives tend to fear change in and of itself, without even truely looking at the positives and negatives behind that change. The "best" system is probably somewhere in between. I think change is a good thing, but it has to be tempered by the reality that many people are resistant to it.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-28-2006, 02:10 PM | #307 | |
Quasi Evil
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So who gets to make the rules about what shall be included in this "wide spectrum" exactly? And what specific curriculum do you use to satisfy everyone that kids are being taught "how to think" with an open mind?
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04-28-2006, 02:36 PM | #308 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I would add that I think liberals tend to embrace change "in and of itself, without even truely looking at the positives and negatives behind that change." I agree that the best position is somewhere in between.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-29-2006 at 02:03 AM. |
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04-28-2006, 02:42 PM | #309 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I can't name a specific curriculum because I haven't looked into it, but I think something that covers basic thinking/analysis skills, such as the law of noncontradiction and valid ways of drawing conclusions, is sorely needed.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-28-2006, 02:53 PM | #310 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Though, I doubt the latter smells like tobacco...but maybe they'll have non-functioning olfactories. EDIT: And, so as to remain on-topic, let us assume that it is Sir Ian McKellen who's sniffing my pipe.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 04-28-2006 at 03:01 PM. |
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04-29-2006, 12:29 AM | #311 | |
Elven Warrior
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OTOH, In the last 5 years I've observed that LOCs are more apt to start screaming "traitors! appeasers! evil-doers!" and turn off the other guy's microphone. |
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04-29-2006, 02:04 AM | #312 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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hmm, I somewhat agree with your last part (and agree with your first part) - I'll start looking for that last part more.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-29-2006 at 02:06 AM. |
05-01-2006, 05:56 AM | #313 | |
Elf Lord
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So, a liberal can't make a rule, because that would be illiberal, right? Sorry to be elementary, but I would like to be clear about this. Liberals are about tolerance and equal opportunities, right? So, premise 1) = people are all different, which is great, but there is inequality in society 2) = we, as a society, have a moral duty to ensure that people have opportunities to be all they can be 3) given 1), 2) is only possible if you actively set out to try change things in some way 4) given 3), we have to think about things like welfare reform, affirmative action, etc etc whatever, which will increase the opportunities afforded to less advantaged groups 5) there is no point in 4) if you don't try to implement it. 6) which means we have to have rules/laws/policies to promote them. 7) which some people won't like for whatever reason. 8) but that's not the same as being intolerant!! I would have though that anyone who had given serious contemplation to liberal arguments would realise that. However, there are plenty of people who only give serious contemplation to the counter-arguments. No change there, back to the studio. To take your argument, Liberals are being intolerant if they try to do anything to change the situation. Which is nonsensical as soon as you follow it through, LOGICALLY. So, what it sounds like when you make this agrument is "shut up, you lily livered liberal you". Which appears to me to be intellectually lazy (at best) or dishonest (assuming that conservatives have made the mental effort to understand the nature of liberals' arguments and not just the counter-arguments) at worst. Last edited by The Gaffer : 05-01-2006 at 05:59 AM. |
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05-01-2006, 04:24 PM | #314 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(and this discussion might be more difficult because we're in two different countries and have different examples to draw from.) Quote:
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My objection is the hypocrisy (which I hate) that's involved in the whole use of the word "tolerance". And at least here in the US, "tolerance" usually means gay marriage, in the vast majority of cases. I wouldn't mind at ALL if those that think it's right to legalize gay marriage said so, and presented argument for their cause. But they go further - they've hijacked the word "tolerant/tolerance" for their cause, and use it in a dishonest way, IMO - to smear those that believe differently than they do about how marriage should be defined (that it should be between one man and one woman). They try to present themselves as the "tolerant" side and talk about being "tolerant" to different ideas, esp. gay marriage, and then turn around and call people with different ideas "intolerant". The two sides are doing EXACTLY the same thing - BOTH of them are trying to codify the definition of marriage how they think is right - and "tolerance" has nothing to do with it. Neither side tolerates the other side's viewpoint - they both think they are doing what is right. Now perhaps the argument might be made that the side that wants to expand the definition of marriage is MORE tolerant, but they are certainly not "tolerant" and the other side "not tolerant". And I"m sure that at some point, most people that want gay marriage would want to draw the line, and then people that wanted broader defs of marriage could call them "intolerant" using the same reasoning, and I doubt they would think that's right. BOTH sides are doing the exact same thing - defining marriage how they think is right. To call one side "intolerant" when one is doing the exact same thing, and when one would object to an even broader (and more "tolerant", by how they're using the word) definition, is just wrong, IMO.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-01-2006 at 04:28 PM. |
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05-01-2006, 05:13 PM | #315 |
Quasi Evil
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So if I want to ban you from marrying you wouldnt say thats intolerant of me from your perspective?
"Intolerant: Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself"
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
05-01-2006, 05:46 PM | #316 | |
Elf Lord
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The difference between the two sides is, indeed, that one side wishes to limit the rights of a certain group and the other side wishes to expand their legal rights... and therefore one is intolerant and the other is. Not allowing a certain group to get the rights all others have does seem intolerant... in my opinion anyway. |
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05-01-2006, 07:28 PM | #317 | |
Elven Warrior
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05-01-2006, 07:31 PM | #318 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-01-2006, 07:35 PM | #319 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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EVERYONE has an opinion on what a marriage should be, and IMO to call one group "intolerant" is just plain silly - UNLESS the person doing the name-calling is willing to allow ANY definition of marriage - group, man-boy, woman-brother, etc. etc.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-01-2006, 10:20 PM | #320 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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That's a rather iffy definition, IR. It seems to be merely constructed to attempt to signify a conservative viewpoint. Being intolerant is not being opposed; one can be opposed to something, and still tolerate. You are confusing tolerating with embracing. Tolerance in fact implies that something contrary to what one believes in, but one still "tolerates" it. Webster's use of "indulgence" captures this well.
And along the note of NAMBLA, there is great precedence for them in antiquity; not only was it accepted widely in many (though of course not all) ancient cultures, but in the Symposium it is portrayed by some persons explicitly (and generally agreed upon, apparently) as being superior to love between a man and a woman. There's certainly a case for allowing this pederastic relationship; I believe the only reason it's still so frowned upon in Western society is the lingering remains of Christian morality.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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