08-18-2007, 11:24 AM | #301 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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One form of narrowmindedness is when people are so certain they're right that they don't take the time to stop and revise their own arguments and look for flaws.
The articles that Inked posted contain several flawed arguments that the authors could surely have spotted themselves, had they just reviewed tge arguments with a more open mind. But well, why would anyone do that if they already "know" they're right? For instance, the Australian professor in Inked's post keep mentioning how the human contribution to the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere are so small compared to natural discharges of such gases. So he expects us to draw the conclusion that any global warming couldn't be man-made. Not true. He fails to take into consideration that the net influx and efflux of greenhouse gases to and from the air is in a delicate balance. With a more open mind, he might have realised that the man-made component of greenhouse gases, albeit comparatively small, in theory just maybe might have a slight potential to affect that natural balance. Like a snowflake triggering an avalanche. Which is also the case, according to the scientific community. But the professor doesn't think that far.
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An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ Last edited by Jonathan : 08-18-2007 at 11:40 AM. |
08-18-2007, 10:19 PM | #302 |
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I just came across this little tidbit on another board I frequent. This is all I have on it.
A Washington, D.C., resident recently came across a 1922 article that revealed early signs of climate change. John Lockwood found a 1922 article in The Washington Post when he was conducting research at the Library of Congress. The article's headline read: "Arctic Ocean Getting Warm; Seals Vanish and Icebergs Melt," according to a report in the Washington Times. The article reports "great masses of ice have now been replaced by moraines of earth and stones," and "at many points well-known glaciers have entirely disappeared." Lockwood said he's discovered other articles from the 1920s and 1930s on the same subject. "I had read of the just-released NASA estimates, that four of the 10 hottest years in the U.S. were actually in the 1930s, with 1934 the hottest of all," Lockwood said.
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08-19-2007, 08:48 PM | #303 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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08-19-2007, 10:47 PM | #304 |
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"the global numbers show that there is no question that the last five to 10 years have been the hottest period of the last century."
So....bet not the hottest in the last 4.5 billion years !
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
09-26-2007, 04:52 PM | #305 |
Kraken King
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I dont care if this thread's dead or not, I'm posting.
What about the methane hydrates on the continental slopes and shelves? Is all the hype about them true? I mean, If we do keep heating up the atmoshere, and the temperature of the water changes enough (Which would be hard) could their disassociation cause the subsequent collapse of the continental shelves? I have only heard very little about this, so If someone could fill me in....
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09-27-2007, 01:18 AM | #306 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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I don't see by which mechanism methane hydrates would be able to cause the continental shelves to collapse, unless you mean that the sea level will rise (melting polar caps). It's true however that methanes are very potent greenhouse gases and by warming up the planet, we speed up their release from the ocean. It's a dangerous vicious circle that could get spiralling out of control if the temperature rise gets bad enough.
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09-27-2007, 04:43 AM | #307 |
Elf Lord
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Me neither.
Though I have heard that, as the peat bogs of Siberia thaw out, they are releasing copious quantities of methane which.... well, you know the rest. * moves to higher ground * |
09-27-2007, 09:57 AM | #308 | |
Kraken King
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Quote:
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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09-27-2007, 08:20 PM | #309 |
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Never heard of that theory. Then again, that's no qualification for anything.
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09-27-2007, 08:22 PM | #310 |
Kraken King
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hehehe
I dont know though. The Earth has heated up before, but much more slowly. what would normally be happening in geologic time is taking place in a life-time. Would that precipatate different results?
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
10-24-2007, 06:26 AM | #311 | |
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most people used to think the earth was flat. majority? doesn't mean it's true. we've been observing the atmosphere scientifically for far too short a time to claim that something's going on of this magnitude. judging by the age of the earth, and the tiny 1 century we've been watching the atmosphere, i don't think someone can fairly say, "aaah! we've destroyed the atmosphere!"
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10-24-2007, 07:59 AM | #312 |
Elf Lord
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1) No-one's said that and
2) What's the basis for that? There is a big issue there: the concept of performing an experiment is inconceivable. But science doesn't only work through observation of experiments, fortunately. If it did, we'd all still believe that the earth is the centre of the solar system. |
10-24-2007, 09:51 AM | #313 | |
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And, although we've only been directly observing climate for a few years, we have other ways of testing our theories based on the records in the earth and sky. Analysis of core samples of polar ice, for example, give us data on climatory change. And the vast preponderance of evidence supports the hypothesies that underlie global warming theory. People aren't just 'fairly saying' it. Science is a process.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-24-2007, 10:21 AM | #314 |
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It's really quite simple. There is less plant life on the earth these days then in the pre-industrial stage, which means less CO2 being converted. Mankind also pumps a lot more CO2 into the atmosphere than it ever did in the past. And more CO2 in the atmosphere means more retention of the heat the sun provides.
Unless you can think of some magical way for that CO2 to disappear, historical observation isn't even necessary to support the argument. It's also true that our planet naturally goes through cold and warm stages, probably due to orbital/axis variations. But our CO2 contribution is causing change on a much smaller timeframe, hundreds, as opposed to tens of thousands, of years. Of course, no matter what we do, significant warming will happen in the next 100 years due to population growth, even if we cut industry CO2 emissons by 100%. But, buying time will allow us to easier adjust to what is destined to be a warmer world than what it is now for hundreds of thousands of years.
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10-24-2007, 06:32 PM | #315 | |
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Try historychannel.com to get local airtimes and maybe even a info page or such. -------------------------------------- sisterandcousinandaunt, "Analysis of core samples of polar ice, for example, give us data on climatory change. And the vast preponderance of evidence supports the hypothesies that underlie global warming theory. People aren't just 'fairly saying' it. Science is a process." Well, yes and no. The analysis of polar ice cores show climate change over thousands of years and cycles of warming and cooling. This includes data on CO2 and CH4 productions as part of the natural cycles. These cycles have ocurred absent human causes in significant ways. It is true that human contributions are important, but as to whether they are "causing" by "the vast preponderance of the evidence" the current global warming is really a major point at issue and IS NOT A FACT despite all the media hype. The media frenzy and collaboration of the Nobel Prize awarded to Al Gore really confuse the issue in people's minds. Al Gore may get the Peace Prize for his getting international collaboration on the issue. But that Prize is NOT a science Prize for actual scientific work. This is a remarkable distinction, but I fear that most people think it a validation of questionalble science. As you note, science is a process. I think the answer will become clearer with more research and data. But right now the HYPE outweighs the data. ------------------ BJ, "It's really quite simple. There is less plant life on the earth these days then in the pre-industrial stage, which means less CO2 being converted. Mankind also pumps a lot more CO2 into the atmosphere than it ever did in the past. And more CO2 in the atmosphere means more retention of the heat the sun provides. Unless you can think of some magical way for that CO2 to disappear, historical observation isn't even necessary to support the argument." Do you really, really mean that no amount of historical data will invalidate the argument you wish to make? That seems a pretty absolute statement for you. I think you mean it won't change your mind, since relatively that's all that matters.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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10-24-2007, 09:32 PM | #316 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Quote:
That said, I have yet to see an argument from the other side showing how nature has ever been able to match the current rate which with we are putting CO2 into the atmosphere, or an argument that increased CO2 just doesn't matter.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-25-2007, 04:23 AM | #317 | |
Elf Lord
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The vast majority of the hype is coming from the climate change deniers. The sad fact is that people are, and have been, influenced by hype more than by data. Personally, I would be delighted to have my mind changed by data, but the fact is that all the data supports the hypothesis that human activity is causing climate change. |
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10-28-2007, 09:24 PM | #318 |
Elf Lord
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http://eobglossary.gsfc.nasa.gov/Lib...le%20Ice%20Age
Glaciers come, glaciers go. Hype comes, hype goes.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-29-2009, 10:20 AM | #319 | |
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I'm doing so because methane release into the atmosphere was very much part of the opening statement of fmr. Vice-President Al Gore, representing the Alliance for Climate Protection, to the Senate Foreign Relations Cmte. in Congress yesterday (Wednesday 28th of Jan). The hearing, http://www.c-spanarchives.org/librar...ts_id=283696-1, is excellent and I recommend it to everyone!
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02-01-2009, 10:40 PM | #320 |
Elf Lord
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You guys need to watch MEGA DISASTERS more often. Methane Hydrate release is certainly a potential problem. I know 'cause it was on TV!!!!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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