Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[katya]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
You realize that you can probably find a local Quaker group by searching the internet, right? [/B]

I've tried. i live nowhere near one though. I meant to go to a service in Ann Arbor last week but I didn't get to it.

[Coney]

How is he unjust? The fact that people die hardly seems like good evidence.

"He shall take, unto him those he deems worthy" .... and therefore he shall deny those who'm he deems not worthy.

HA!................HE takes and takes...................THAT is all HE does

Why don't you think it's your call?

And he really gives us a choice?.......I think not

he unjust? The fact that people die hardly seems like good evidence.

What more evidence do you need?...Love is the greatest gift that God bestowed upon humanity ......surely? Yet he denies it to so many

[quote]How is he unjust? The fact that people die hardly seems like good evidence. [/quote

Evidence for what?........that if you beleive in the Hebrew G-d that you'll wait until the day of judgement in the earth until judgement day or if you are a Christian that you'acsend directly to heaven? (although the bible does not prescribe it(?

[Wayfarer]

Deeper Magic from Before The Dawn of Time.

In brief:

Humans are sinful, and so are seperated from God (who is perfect). Seperation from God = death. And the fact that humans are sinful means that they are incapable of saving themselves. Thus christ, who was perfect, had to pay the penalty on our behalf.

[Wayfarer]

Cony, again:

"He shall take, unto him those he deems worthy" .... and therefore he shall deny those who'm he deems not worthy.

Erm. No.

In case I didn't make it clear in my reply to millane, there is nobody that God considers worthy. That's the entire point of needing a savior, ain't it?

And he really gives us a choice?.......I think not

You've already been told that he does.

What more evidence do you need?...Love is the greatest gift that God bestowed upon humanity ......surely? Yet he denies it to so many

Love? Yes. We were created for love, out of love. And no one is denied God's love. You may reject it, but it will never be withheld from you.

Evidence for what?........that if you beleive in the Hebrew G-d that you'll wait until the day of judgement in the earth until judgement day or if you are a Christian that you'acsend directly to heaven? (although the bible does not prescribe it)?

My question was: How is death unjust on God's behalf?

[Lizra]

To read about Unity Church, (the church I really liked), go to www.unity.org

Click on "about us", then "more about unity", then on "what is unity".

One of my favorite parts is #18.......Heaven and Hell are states of consciousness, not geographical locations. We make our own heaven or hell here and now by our thoughts, words, and deeds.

I also like #16 !

Sorry to interupt the current posting!

[Coney]

Humans are sinful, and so are seperated from God (who is perfect

God it not perfect.....he made man (Adam) in his image....man sinned...........Man-God is not perfect.

Seperation from God = death.

Almost, but not quite: Separation from G-d means not only death but also Eternity in Hell (unless you are Cain who recieved the "mark" from God which means he cannot be killed, even by God.......an eternity of life on earht *shrugs*).

fact that humans are sinful means that they are incapable of saving themselves.

Onlly after God delivered them to temptatioin and then turned His back on them (Adam).............Omniopcy.....Hmmm....

Thus christ, who was perfect, had to pay the penalty on our behalf.

Hmm, sacrifice the first-born.........not an unoriginal idea through most of the religions of that time

[Wayfarer]

God it not perfect.....he made man (Adam) in his image....man sinned...........Man-God is not perfect.

Illogical. Men were created to be perfect, but with free will. Adam became imperfect by choice.

The word is corruption. Something imperfect comes from something something perfect.

Separation from G-d means not only death but also Eternity in Hell

Yes. Physical and Spiritual death.

Onlly after God delivered them to temptatioin and then turned His back on them (Adam).............Omniopcy.....Hmmm....

God did not deliver them to temptation, and he certainly never turned his back on them. He simply made another way.

Hmm, sacrifice the first-born.........not an unoriginal idea through most of the religions of that time

True. I think this is one example of how christianity is both similar to and radically different from any other religion.

Christ sacrificed himself in order to give us salvation.
Oden sacrificed himself to get more power.

Similar, yet different.

[MasterMothra]

first of all let me straighten out your perception of my christian knowledge. if i ask a question that may seem beneath the intellegence of normal christians, it is because i am inquiring into their perception of what the bible says. when i review the reply i compare it to my perception of what the bible states. i believe in comparing the foundations of christian beleifs before i venture into the more complicated discussions. that way i know if we are comparing apples to apples.

i try to find some basis for logic in the bible and have not been able to do so for some time. i will provide an example.


who has ascended to heaven?
Genesis 5:24) Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven.
(II Kings 2:11) Elijah ascended to heaven in a whirlwind.
(John 3:13) Jesus said that no man but himself has ever ascended to heaven.
(Hebrews 11:5) Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven.

who has actually seen god?
(Gen 18:1) The Lord appeared to Abraham.
(GEN 32:24-30) Jacob saw and wrestled with God
(EX 24:9-11) Moses & 73 elders gazed upon God.
(Exodus 33:11) God spoke to Moses face-to-face.
(Exodus 33:22-23) God allowed Moses to see his "back parts".
(Deut 34:10) God spoke to Moses face-to-face.
(IS 6:1-13) Isaiah stood before God and saw him
(Ezekiel 1:27-28) Ezekiel saw God in a vision and described Him in some detail.
(Amos 7:7) Amos saw God.
(John 1:18, 6:46) No one has ever seen God.
(1 TIM6:16) God is un-seeable
(I John 4:12) No one has ever seen God.

is god righteous?
(GEN 18:25) God claims to judge right
(GEN 22:1-2) God commands Abraham to sacrifice his own son.
(EX 20:5) God admits jealousy
(DEUT 32:4) God is perfect, just, true, righteous, upright,
(PSALM 92:15) God is not unrighteous
(IS 45:7) God claims to do good AND evil; all things
(JER 18:11) God threatens disaster to make a people be good
(EZEK 18:25) God claims to be fair
(AMOS 3:6) God admits he makes calamity
(ROM 2:11) God is impartial
(JAMES 1:13) God is not tempted by evil and tempts no one with evil

when i was christian i took the word of god literally. the bible consistantly makes contridicting statements like these. and the values the bible preaches regarding buying and selling slaves, wives and daughters is sickening. is that really how your god feels?

[Wayfarer]

first of all let me straighten out your perception of my christian knowledge. if i ask a question that may seem beneath the intellegence of normal christians, it is because i am inquiring into their perception of what the bible says.

Okay. Ask away. Just don't let me catch you making erroneous claims as to what christianity teaches, agreed?

*/looks up every single citation, and gets back to you.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lizra
To read about Unity Church, (the church I really liked), go to www.unity.org ...... Sorry to interupt the current posting!

Well, I checked out the website (thanks, Lizra ) and I can definitely say that Unity Church is NOT a Bible-based Christian church, IMO. Just a couple of quick examples - Jesus is NOT divine in the sense that the Bible gives (i.e., God's only son, fully God, eternal, etc.) but is on par with other humans but is a good teacher; the Bible is NOT the word of God, just a good guide; and there's quite a few more. Now many things sound nice and friendly and all, but as far as in-line with the Bible - absolutely not.

BTW, my comments are just FYI, Lizra - perhaps there's other things that you like about Unity Church that are more important to you - but as a person that knows the Bible well, I can confidently say that it is not a Christian church (meaning it disagrees with some of the MAJOR-ly important ideas that are clearly stated in the Bible).

ps - and you're never an unwelcome 'interruption'! What was that line in a famous book (was it LoTR? I don't think so) - 'you may have interrupted me, but it doesn't follow that the interruption is unpleasant!" - maybe it was one of Jane Austin's books....

[Rían]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
and the values the bible preaches regarding buying and selling slaves, wives and daughters is sickening. is that really how your god feels?

Hi again MM! Nice to see you - you always have good questions and make me think alot! I really appreciate your references, too, that's helpful. I think I'll let WF have a go at it first, 'tho, but I did want to make a quick comment about what I quoted of your post - I think you need to remember that the Bible also reports history, in addition to 'preaching values'. I'm not aware of any verses that approve of what you said in the quote; I am aware of where the Bible reports on things like that that happened. Am I mistaken here that you are aware of? (IOW, do you have any references where the Bible approves of those things, or can you give me a general idea of where you think it approves, and I can check it out myself).

[MasterMothra]

hello rian! did your family have a good holiday? my daughter was spoiled again by her grandparents, but i suppose thats what grandparents are for.

this chapter comes directly after the ten commandments in ex 20.


Exodus 21
1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.
12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.
14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.
15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:
19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him.
31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him.
32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.
33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein;
34 The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his.
35 And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide.
36 Or if it be known that the ox hath used to push in time past, and his owner hath not kept him in; he shall surely pay ox for ox; and the dead shall be his own

[MasterMothra]

here is leviticus thoughts on slavery:

20 " 'If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD . 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.
23 " 'When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. [2] For three years you are to consider it forbidden [3] ; it must not be eaten. 24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the LORD . 25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.
26 " 'Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.
" 'Do not practice divination or sorcery.
27 " 'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
28 " 'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD .
29 " 'Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Coney
God it not perfect.....he made man (Adam) in his image....man sinned...........Man-God is not perfect.

I heard a very interesting sermon once on how Genesis 5:3 is one of the saddest verses in the Bible ("When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image..."). Back to this in a sec..

Just a reminder - again, I am not arguing whether or not the Bible is true here; that's a different subject. What I'm presenting here is what the Bible says on your statement that I quoted, and what some Bible scholars say on that subject. It has nothing to do with if you believe the Bible or not - I'm just trying to correct a misconception of what you think the Bible says.

If I hand you a drawing made by my 7-year-old of a person, would you recognize it as a person? (she's very good, BTW - much better than her older brothers!) Yes; it is an image of a person, but obviously lesser. Now what are some of the ways that man is uniquely (i.e., the animals aren't stated to be in God's image) in God's image, but in a lesser way? (because they aren't, well, God! ) Let's start out right in the very same sentence where God creates man (mankind) -

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

First similarity - God is the sovereign ruler over all; and He has made man (which means 'mankind'- note the use of "them" in the phrase "let them rule") a ruler, too, under Him. And that's why Christians should also help with environmental issues, too, as appropriate - our charge was to rule the earth, and we should do the best job we can. Now personally, I would rather put more energy into saving unborn babies than saving the whales, but that's another issue, and I don't wish to elaborate on that right now.
More aspects of being created in God's image - God is Spirit, and man has a spiritual nature. God is a Person (as opposed to some kind of collective, impersonal mush), He is intelligent (supremely intelligent, BTW), and He chooses to act as He wishes (and it's always just and right). People are identifiably individuals (and boy, do we have some unique ones here ), intelligent (as opposed to operating merely on instinct), and have free will in their specified area of operation (IOW, they can't do (i.e., achieve) something ridiculous like ordering God to stop existing and have it happen, and unlike God, they tragically misuse their free will). Anyway, I hope this helps you out with the made-in-God's-image concept - does it?

(ps - and it is stated many times in the Bible that (1) God is holy and perfect, and (2) man is not. So just because man is now, sadly, a marred, as well as a lesser, image of God does NOT mean that God is not perfect.)

And now back to the verse I started with - Adam was stated in the Bible to have been made in God's image. Adam had his son after the fall. Adam's son was in Adam's image - a fallen image. And that's tragic.

Oh God, how I thank You for providing a way of salvation for us.

Another 'short post' that turned into a long one

[Rían]

whoops, just saw your 2 posts, MM - you posted while I was typing. If you've read much of this thread, you'll see that I have a bit of a queue built up. I'll get to you as soon as I can - if you want to hear from me, personally, on these issues, I'm afraid others are ahead of you but I will address them. Other Christians, jump in if you feel like it in the meantime

But I do sometimes allow cuts in line - especially if I can answer them fairly quickly.

edit - got distracted - I addressed the wine issue my next post, not this one.

And thanks for asking, MM - yes, it was very nice And grandparents are definitely for spoiling

[Wayfarer]

Heaven: I don't like this one because heaven can mean several different things. It could be plausably argued that Elijah was taken into space. (I won't do so, but it's an interesting thought. )

Unfortunately, the Hebrew provides no help here, as the word used has the same multiple meanings as our english word. It could mean (1):'the sky' (2):'the universe' or (3):'the presence of God'. Do we switch between verses or not? Also, there is the problem of translation.

But enough about that. Let's take a look.

(Genesis 5:24) Enoch was taken. Period. It doesn't say where.
(II Kings 2:11) Interestingly, Elijah had a reputation for dissapearing into thin air. I Kings 18:10 for example. The usage of the word heaven in this passage is also ambiguious. He was taken up in a whirlwind, and that certainly fits (1). That's certainly the only usage we can be sure applies, even though it is commonly used as (3). Interestingly, in (II Chronicles 21:12) King Jehoram gets a 'writing' or letter from elijah. Was he in heaven, or on earth?
(John 3:13) I think this is pretty likely to be usage (3). God's presence. This is certainly true in the sense that no human has ever actually been on the same plane as God.
(Hebrews 11:5) This one franky baffles me. My translation says 'heaven', but they occasionally add things in an attempt to clarify. Of the different translations I checked, most of them seemed to agree that they hebrew says 'taken up' with no mention of heaven. Additionally, several verses later (v13), enoch is listed as someone who died in faith. That certainly indicates that he was not immediately taken to god's presence.

You've raised some interesting theological questions as a tangent, and for that I thank you. But the verses you cite are ambiguious, and do not provide a solid case either way. Certainly, there is circumstantial evidence that neither actually went into heaven at that time.

Who has seen God:
A somewhat common idea among christians (those that think of such things, anyway) is that some old testament appearences of 'the lord' or 'the angel of the lord', especially those that speak in the first person, are appearances of Christ. More on that later.

(Gen 18:1) Could be what I mentioned above, but I think the thing to take notice of is in vs 2. Abraham saw three men.
(GEN 32:24-30) Again, Jacob sees and wrestles with 'a man'. He later says 'I have seen God face to face'
(EX 24:9-11)
(Exodus 33:11) Metaphor. 'Face to face' 'as a man speaks to a friend'.
(Exodus 33:22-23) Moses was allowed to see the glory of the lord. I find it curious that he was not allowed to see God's face.
(Deut 34:10) See my above.
(IS 6:1-13) Isaiah had a vision.
(Ezekiel 1:27-28) Zeke sees the 'appearance of the likeness of the glory of the lord'. Whatever that means.
(Amos 7:7) God showed amos a vision.
(John 1:18, 6:46) I think it's sensible that a transcendent being can only be known by his self/selves.
(1 TIM 6:16) God lives in unnaproachable light. Seems to agree with my conclusion above.
(I John 4:12) No one has ever seen God.

Another interesting theological point: God is trancendant, and therefore it is impossible for a human (at least on earth) to actually see him. He is more than our minds or senses could possibly take in.
However, that is not to say that humanity cannot be given a glimpse, vision, or general idea. Notice that even Moses was not allowed to see god's face. Taking this metaphorically (since god does not have a literal face, except in christ), it seems to me to support the thesis that while God, in his absolute fullness, is beyond comprehension, it is possible to know him to some degree.
Very thought provoking. I must admit I was completely mistaken about your level of knowledge. Will you forgive me for my abrasiveness?

is god righteous?
(GEN 18:25) Yep.
(GEN 22:1-2) Considering the outcome, this is a poor example of supposed injustice.
(EX 20:5) Jealousy, but not in the sense (Envy) you seem to be using. Rather, the sense used is that of close vigilance, or interest in another's purity.
(DEUT 32:4) I'll buy that.
(PSALM 92:15) Excepting the double negative, yeah.
(IS 45:7) Or prosperity and disaster. However, I think it's a valid point that evil is only able to exist because of God's creation. This does not mean that god is Evil himself.
(JER 18:11) Because he wishes to deter them from evil. Not unjust that I can see.
(EZEK 18:25) He asks "Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?" I think it's a valid question.
(AMOS 3:6) Yes. Calamity does not negate justice.
(ROM 2:11) Objective, even.
(JAMES 1:13) Indeed?

I really cannot see how any of your examples shows injustice. However, it's 12:30, and I've been typing since seven, so there's a chance I may have overlooked something. If you would care to offer a specific case I will happily reconsider.

Now, let's see the limit is 5000 chars...there

[Wayfarer]

I fail to see the problem with limiting the length a person can be a slave, or punishing the owner for permanantly injuring them, or in general treating them like a person.

What, specifically, do you find offensive about placing strict limits on how slaves are to be dealt with? I can think of a few countries that would have done well to follow those guidlines.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Before I get shouted down, let me make it clear that I am not speaking on behalf of anyone here. This is my opinion.

If anyone "shouts you down", I, as the thread starter, will personally (well, virtually) bop them on the head with my copy of LoTR!! Your thoughts and opinions are welcome, as long as you are considerate of others (i.e., no insults or 'yelling', please). If anyone wants to be obnoxious, they can just go start another "offshoot" thread and call it "the obnoxious offshoot thread" or something like that . But it's been really enjoyable and interesting so far.

I don't think modern Christianity is what Jesus wanted. I think that religions are too caught up in maintaining their existence to take Jesus into consideration when they set their policies. When I read the Bible, I don't see this stoicism that is so essential to those who "practice" Christianity. Like the refusal to drink wine. Jesus changed water into wine it says, but the modern Christian is not supposed to drink. And he didn't say not to smoke tobacco, but that's bad, too, and of course you'll go to Hell if you smoke pot. Where in the Bible does it say that is bad? All these rules and regulations they say Jesus wanted aren't in the Bible. Like polygamy. Man the Bible is full of polygamy, but somehow that's a sin.

I think it's 100% safe to say that the Church is not perfect, since it is composed of sinful people. I think that some churches are farther from the ideal than others, and personally, I think mine is one of the best! I wish I could transport all of you here and take you with me so you could hear a pastor that really loves God and knows the Bible and preaches it straight.

Just a few quick remarks (I've said that before, haven't I? ) I agree with you about the stoicism, and actually commented on it in the original thread. We are actually reminded in the Bible to "rejoice in the Lord" (which is v. easy to do when we can pry our eyes off of our selfish concerns and see the wonderful things that God has done - we just forget to do it, that's why that verse is there - Philippians 4:4 is just one sample of verses like this).

The Bible certainly does not say that "the modern Christian is not supposed to drink"! In fact, in I Timothy 5:23, Paul tells Timothy "No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments." However, the Bible speaks out very strongly against being drunk or addicted to wine. Do you see the difference? My husband and I usually have a glass of wine once a week, sometimes twice, and we enjoy it very much. In fact, we read LoTR together last year, often with a glass of wine and some cheese - what a great combo - LoTR, wine and cheese!

As far as tobacco, I don't see anything in the Bible about that. However, I think it is proper for a church, if it knows that something is harmful, to warn its congregation. The verse that I've heard churches use is I Corinthians 3:16 - "Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" It's wrong for us to intentionally harm our body, and that's probably why they call it a sin, and I agree that it is wrong to harm our bodies. I would say that there are more important sins to worry about first, but that's a matter of opinion.

Pot - not specifically in the Bible, except in the sense of pottery , but Christians are instructed to obey the laws of the land.

Polygamy - I think this falls under the 'reporting' area of the Bible, like I talked about earlier. I don't know of anywhere where God commands or praises this practice.

Here's another thing I never got. If Jesus wanted to create a religion, why did he sit out on the steps and preach to people who were entering?

Wayfarer had a great comment on this, IMO - did you see it?

I don't get the idea of worshipping a sacrificial victim, either. It seems so barbaric. And then eating his body and drinking his blood. Somehow TO MY MIND the philosophy of quiet contemplation does a much better job of bringing me closer to God.

Sorry, I'm running out of gas here - I'm not gonna get as much beauty rest as I planned! Just quickly - Jesus is worthy of worship because who He is - God! - not what happened to him. And crucifixion was horrible! But Jesus went thru it for us - what tremendous love this demonstrates! I think the eating and drinking, like WF said, is a symbol - Jesus also says that He is a vine and we are the branches, but *looks at self* I sure don't see any leaves sprouting out of me And yes, quiet comtemplation sounds nice, but WILL NOT bring about salvation - Christ provides the only way.

And now I really must go! Good-night, all

[Andúril]

Wayfarer:
Anduril believes that some/most attributes which are ascribed to God are logically incompatable, and therefore, false. I disagree. However, he and I share the view that if something IS logically impossible, then it's not true.

Once again, let me clarify this issue. My position is that some god-concepts cannot exist in reality because they are defined with incompatible attributes.

In my experience I have found that most people define "God" differently -- sometimes entirely different, other times varying in minor details. Thus I am required to examine each god-concept on its own, since it would be a hopeless generalization, and illogical, for me to conclude unequivocally or universally that "God cannot exist" or "God can exist".

[Andúril]

MasterMothra:
*snip*

if you would like me to post a few contridiction in the bible i would be glad to

*snip*

For some or other reason, I wasn't able to post any replies at home last night. Anyway, I wanted to advise caution against such a move. Have you personally examined these alleged contradictions? Have you investigated the viewpoints of various apologists? These are necessary -- as a minimum, in my opinion -- before making such a claim.