Why you believe what you believe I

[Nurvingiel]

Why should we remember? We don't even remember what we did when we were babies. I can't even remember what I had for lunch three days ago.

There's nothing in my own beliefs that discount the possibility of reincarnation, though I don't have any strong belief in it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah but you remember being a baby don't you? And you remember that you did eat lunch three days ago. If reincarnation did occur you'd at least remember glimpses of your past life.

[Draken]

Some interesting points Lizra. I can't even say I'm an atheist with any conviction! There seem to be three major strands to how the Universe came about: a) It has always been here, Big Banging then contracting ad infinitum, b) It just sort of created itself and c) A God of some description made it. All three are equally mind-boggling, to me.

Assuming we plump for c), how do we know what that god intended? There are profound differences between the religions on offer. Many rely on ancient texts - are we really sure these convey what they were originally intended to convey? Via manual transliteration, translation and, yes, downright editing? Is the New Testament that took shape under Paul what Jesus intended?

I would have to say that belief is resorted to in the lack of knowledge. It's akin to prejudice in a sense: we probably can't eliminate it from the way we think, but those that come to rely on it rather than the data that knowledge provides inevitably cause problems for themselves and others.

As for reincarnation: well, conservation of souls WOULD follow the general principles of the physical universe! But as the population has risen inexorably, where have the new souls come from? Is there a soul holding station that drip-feeds them into the universe? And whilst I'm on the subject, how come so many people who claim to have knowledge of past lives seem to claim big historical significance? All the stories I hear seem to involve warriors dying nobly fighting the Romans or hand-maidens of Cleopatra (or Cleopatra herself!). Didn't anyone in a past life, you know, just do some average stuff and die of a bad head cold in their seventies?

[Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

Wayfarer, nice of you to drop in. And I'm glad you have a book with interesting names attached to me in it. I just hope "Randy" isn't one of them.

Rian, kind of YOU to remember something of our old jokes.

Heheh. No, but I remember 'Ranadwelt'. Goodness, people made up a lot of stealth-accounts back then, but you were the worst of us. I remember 'whitetrash', but that's the only one that stuck in my mind. Oh, and of course I remember your hobbitish alter-ego, Lorco Books!

Ah, Nostalgia for the good old days on the unmoderated IGN boards.


I do actually have... well, actually, no I don't have any questions at the moment, Rian. I have the seeds of questions which are slowly germinating, and if I will be allowed to shift gears and switch metaphors midsentance my mind requires further time to compile. Don't be hasty.

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by Draken

I would have to say that belief is resorted to in the lack of knowledge. It's akin to prejudice in a sense: we probably can't eliminate it from the way we think, but those that come to rely on it rather than the data that knowledge provides inevitably cause problems for themselves and others.

I like your whole post Draken but the above part is most intriquing.

[inked]

Without any intent to hijack the thread, Draken's observations on belief in the place of or absence of data are evident on the marriage thread. The data say one thing very clearly but beliefs replace data.

Another view of belief is that is the reliance placed on available data (not contradicting it) extrapolated to the next stage of action either for personal deeds or scientific inquiry ( a hypothesis is in fact based on a belief about the nature of the studied object and its predictable behaviour which is then testable for science or observable for verification). We cannot for instance test the BIG BANG by observation (a unique event) but we can postualte results of that and test those. A person may believe life begins at birth and we can see how they react to a miscarriage or stillbirth in the latter category.

Everything we do is in fact predicated on belief that the known world acts in a reliable way - and we persist in beleief even in the face of quantum physics and the vast emptiness between atomic particles! Therefore I would submit that belief is not a last resort but the very source of our daily activities and thought and interactions.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Heheh. No, but I remember 'Ranadwelt'.

I always wondered what that meant ...

I do actually have... well, actually, no I don't have any questions at the moment, Rian. I have the seeds of questions which are slowly germinating, and if I will be allowed to shift gears and switch metaphors midsentance my mind requires further time to compile. Don't be hasty.

No problem - I'm a "let's put it on the back burner" person, myself (and I also like taking the scenic route, as my updated title shows!) Just try to harvest the ripe questions before his turn on the hot seat is over!

[Rían]

OK, Dylan, here's my next 2 questions:

3. Who are some of your favorite people, and what is it about them that you like?

4. What will happen when Brahma wakes?

[Wayfarer]

Hmm. Allright. I've got one. And I'm not trying to be funny or clever with this, either. For once in my life.

So:

"What is Truth?"

[Ñólendil]

So...I know what I know, the heaven and hell bits of christianity seem ridiculous, and many christians are very hung up on this....so trying to understand your "end product" of we can all come to an understanding of "the truth" through many paths sounds fab...but how often does this happen? It seems many rules and regulation type religious people get hung up on the dogma and take a permanent pit stop? Errrr....define "the truth" not really...it is rather undefinable...unless of course it is all spelled out chapter by chapter in a black or white book with gold writing and edges...

I do not personally believe in permanent pit stops. I don't conceive of some people "never getting it" and others of attaining the truth, or salvation, or whatever it is to be called. How often does it happen? Not very often. I believe it takes countless lifetimes to get to that point, and those enlightened people are very few in number, who can be seen and spoken with, who are alive today. I think they do exist though, ... I can think of at least one person I have seen and heard who seems to me to be at least very close to Truth Realization.

As far as reincarnation...from my first posts, I believe our energy is recycled, but merely as plain old energy. The hindu thing keeps this energy grouped together somehow in a "soul" that moves from being to being, unaware of itself, but evovling along the way...till the truth is reached?

This is one way of looking at it. One of the names for God in Hinduism is Shakti, which means "power, energy". She is the feminine, powerful aspect of God, by which all is created, sustained, and destroyed in Time. She is also considered to be, by many, the aspect of God which fuels us all. So "energy" is one way of looking at the Atman, or soul. But I think it goes beyond physical, or "the scientific" energy--I see the soul as pure energy, and pure consciousness. As for awareness, I think the soul is awareness. To be aware of oneself is to imply division, to think of the seen and the seer. The soul is sight itself, the soul is power, the soul is energy, the soul is everything that is real. I think the "ego" is that which is unaware of anything except itself, and other egos, ... the ego is the illusion maker. And it is the ego that is ever changing, and ever evolving, until it can be cast away all together, until it dies, and the soul is "free". The truth is then reached. But when one speaks of "freedom" in this sense, the only real release from bondage, is the release from the bondage of what not real: the sense of bondage. The idea is that you were, are, and always will be free, there is no bondage. Realizing that, there is only peace. So I think the ego moves from being to being, evolves, and dies. And the soul simply is, it is reality, and that which supports all that is less real, or false, including the ego.

AS far as the guides (jesus, buddah etc) what?...you read their stuff and toss some of it aside and save what you think are the kernals of truth? Why bother with all that....if you can feel the truth within yourself...strong...clear....why confuse the issue?

I think you have mistaken me. I was illustrating how the attidude of "I know what I know" can be perfectly valid. I do not toss some aside, and save what I think is the truth. Why bother with all of it? Because it helps. You have everything you need inside of you--but we think we are lost, and we suffer. Josua and Siddhartha can help us understand why we suffer, and how we may go beyond suffering to salvation and happiness. Thus, I think it useful and good and worthwhile to follow their teachings. At the same time, one should decide for oneself what is true, and what is real, and what is false. If that means ignoring the scriptures, so be it. If that means following them, so be it. The Truth will come from within ... but it will not come of its own accord. The guides, as we have been calling them, can show us the way. You can find the way without reading their teachings, I believe, but they will show it to you. Then it must be walked.

It's just about what you choose to do. I don't think theists are wrong, or atheists right, or vice-versa. I think we just have different routes.

If reincarnation does occur then surely we'd remember being different species and things we did as them.

I don't see why we would. For one thing, my memory does not reach further back then my third year of my life. Secondly, to me the memory is not the soul. My memory is of my life, and it is always changing, for it is a part of my ego. I had a different memory in my last life, and a different one before that. In fact, I had a different memory one second ago. I think my ego is very different in this life than it was in my last life. I don't think any memories would survive death. I don't think the soul thinks, and tells us things about our lives, like our brain may do of our present one. I think the soul beyond thought, it is ultimate consciousness. So I don't think we would remember past lives, if we had them.

I would have to say that belief is resorted to in the lack of knowledge. It's akin to prejudice in a sense: we probably can't eliminate it from the way we think, but those that come to rely on it rather than the data that knowledge provides inevitably cause problems for themselves and others.

I think belief can be something resorted to in the lack of knowledge. But "resorted" implies that belief is lesser than knowledge. I think the branches of knowledge, the branches of science (a word which I believe means "knowledge"), fulfills a different task than belief, or faith. I think faith arises when we want to understand what cannot rationally, logically, or systematically be understood. And I don't think faith does grant us concrete understanding of such things. I don't think that is the purpose of faith. I think faith is about going in certain directions ... whether you get there is unimportant, as far as the matter of faith is concerned. Faith is about hope, and peace of mind. What I am saying is this: belief supplies us with questions, and answers to those questions--are they true? Are they false? One does not know, belief is not about having questions and answers, not facts and mistakes. If you just rely on knowledge, you won't have questions and answers about those things which cannot be proven or disproven. And if you just rely on faith, you won't have the facts about the world you're living in.

So I don't think one fails where the other succeeds. I think they are simply different. and they compliment each other.

But as the population has risen inexorably, where have the new souls come from?

I don't believe in "new" souls. I don't believe souls, or the soul, is created. I think the soul is a manifestation of the divine. The soul supports all sentient beings, not just humanity, whose population you bring up. I don't see the Atman, the soul, as having a beginning, or an end, a creation, or a destruction, a corruption, or a redemption. No new souls, no old souls. So, in my own particular worldview, the population does not really matter, as the soul in my idea is not finite.

As for people who claim to remember past lives, I would suggest that, most likely, these are people who are lying, or delusional.

I always wondered what that meant ...

"Ranadwelt", linguistically, doesn't mean anything. But it was the surname of a famous family in my stories. "Randy" was just a nick-name invented by other people on the Middle-earth Vault.

[Ñólendil]

3. Who are some of your favorite people, and what is it about them that you like?

I don't have favorite people, really. I have friends and family, and favorite authors, and some actors whose work I enjoy.

4. What will happen when Brahma wakes?

What an unexpected question! I wonder why you ask it.

And I'm not sure which myth you are referring to. As one story goes, Brahma falls asleep between universes. He opens his eyes, and the universe is created. He shuts them to sleep, and the world dissolves. Or Shiva dances the cosmic dance, and all goes back to its potentiality. When Brahma wakes up again, he creates the universe anew. It's a never-ending cycle.

"What is Truth?"

This is a question which cannot adequately be answered. I think of Truth as Reality, I think of Truth as God, I think of Truth as an ocean of light, I think of Truth as Heaven, I think of Truth as enlightenment, a state of mind, I think of Truth as a mystery. Do I know, beyond everything, what Truth is? No, I do not.

To look at it from a different angle, truth is a word, and a notion, an idea created by human beings, a thing to be transcended, and cast away. "Truth" is not the same as Truth.

[Nurvingiel]

I love reading your posts Ñólendil.


What are some of the core beliefs of Hinduism? Of Buddhism?

[inked]

Wayfarer,

Socrates defined Truth in one syllable words:

To say of what is that it is and of what is not that it is not; to not say of that which is not that it is or of that which is that it is not.

Nolendil, does that accurately reflect your understanding or Hindu understanding of Truth?

Nolendil, if the loss of selfhood is the goal of absorption into the divine (per above), then you believe that the abnegation of self-consciousness is the goal of all being. How is this not ultimately futile even for the All? And if retention of the self-awareness is the perogative of the divine and we are sparks of the divine, how shall we achieve this utter negation of the ground of being and become (for lack of a better tem) voided/negated/nothing?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Is there anything about your religions that you doubt?

[Lizra]

Thanks again Noledil....Hinduism sounds very ...gentle...!?...I like that.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

I don't have favorite people, really. I have friends and family, and favorite authors, and some actors whose work I enjoy.

OK, let me put it another way.

3a. Re your friends - what made you choose to call them your friends? If they're friends, I imagine you spend more time with them (or at least would like to spend more time with them) than you do with people you don't like - why? What is it about them that would make you want to spend more time with them? If possible, please give examples of two different friends (you can change the names to protect the innocent )

What an unexpected question! I wonder why you ask it.

Shall I say why? We women like to be mysterious ...
(otoh, we can't resist talking! )

Actually, I imagine I'm a bit different than you think ...

Anyway, I had heard a story that men and gods are just a dream of Brahma, and when he awakens, they will perish. I had wondered if you had heard that story - have you? The story you've heard seems to be quite the opposite.

Not to be disrespectful, but if the story I've heard is true, I sure hope he keeps sleeping, because there are many "dream people" that I know and love, and hope to know for all eternity.

5. In your first Tolkien cycle (if that makes sense), what was it that kept you so interested in Tolkien's works that you moved onto the Sil and HoME to such an extent that you are very knowledgeable?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by inked

Socrates defined Truth in one syllable words:

To say of what is that it is and of what is not that it is not; to not say of that which is not that it is or of that which is that it is not.

*checks it out*

Hey, they really ARE all one syllable words!

But it gives me a headache to read them all!

I like the definition, tho.

[brownjenkins]

while wandering the web i pulled out a term that fits me pretty well...

agnostic atheism ~ the position that holds both atheism and agnosticism to be true. A person holding such a position does not believe that any God or gods exist, and also that it is impossible to prove or disprove this position.

the best of both worlds

[inked]

Really avoids the difficulty of outright atheism which avers "there is no God", and agnosticism which avers "it is not possible to know if there is a God" so we get "it is not possible to know if there is a God there is no God" - or somethng like that, right?

I think this is known as an oxymoron.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

Really avoids the difficulty of outright atheism which avers "there is no God", and agnosticism which avers "it is not possible to know if there is a God" so we get "it is not possible to know if there is a God there is no God" - or somethng like that, right?

is see it more as... i don't believe there is a god, but one can never prove it one way or the other

thus, i have my belief... followed by a statement of fact