10-21-2002, 01:51 PM | #301 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Gerbil, I heard it this way:
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach criticize.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
10-21-2002, 02:32 PM | #302 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions for BB
Quote:
You were correct, however, in saying I've been "proven" wrong. You guys have been nailing me with an absolutely amazing defense of your position. My favorite examples are: Quote:
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10-21-2002, 02:47 PM | #303 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 10-21-2002 at 02:54 PM. |
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10-21-2002, 03:02 PM | #304 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Re: Peter Jackson has improved Tolkien
Quote:
__________________
There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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10-21-2002, 03:06 PM | #305 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Refute this
Quote:
__________________
There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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10-21-2002, 03:08 PM | #306 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
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..and this
Quote:
__________________
There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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10-21-2002, 03:10 PM | #307 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 797
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions for BB
Quote:
Quote:
However, I am sure I am not the only one who would point out that your last comment is a far cry from claiming that PJ improved on Tolkien. If you are merely trying to point out that the movie, despite it's flaws, is still great, then you'd have more people on your side. That's NOT been the thrust though - you are claiming PJ IMPROVED on Tolkien, which many disagree with. Quote:
Quote:
I am not aware of you having responded to my (in my opinion ) long and detailed reply to your post a few pages ago. Finally, I think the others answered some of your issues a bit more rationally nearer the start of the thread - it's had a tendency to veer slightly towards name-calling and digs at each other, hardly a breeding ground for a rational discussion |
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10-21-2002, 06:31 PM | #308 | |
Elf Lord
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions for BB
Quote:
To many of the Tolkien fans, including me, nothing could improve Tolkien. No, it is not perfect, but Jackson's film (though I do love it) is far from perfect as well, as a film and as an adaptation of the books (but more so the latter). Perhaps we should start a thread called "Brian Sibley has improved Tolkien" and see what other arguments we can come up with. And 'amen, Brotha Gerbil'
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
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10-21-2002, 06:52 PM | #309 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
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Welcome to Tolkien Crossfire...on the RIGHT is Gerbil...(we see a cute little brown gerbil) ... and on the LEFT is Black Breathalizer (we see a dashingly handsome dude in a ringwraith cloak and hood). Tonight's question: Did Peter Jackson make a better Boromir than JRR Tolkien?
Blackie: This one is a no-brainer, Gerbil. Jackson's Boromir gave us a more fully realized character; one that was likeable but with definite flaws. Gerbil: I totally disagree. Jackson's Boromir is ludicrously inconsistent and too down to earth. Blackie: Too down to earth? He came across as arrogant, self-centered, and deeply devoted to his homeland just as Tolkien described him in the book. The only thing Jackson added was to make him less of a cardboard character by a) highlighting his fondness for Merry & Pippen; b) emphasizing to a greater extent his love for his homeland; and c) paying tribute to Aragorn on his deathbed. Gerbil: Yeah, well his actions weaken the ring's power immensely. Having him actually get his hands on the ring was utter stupidity. Blackie: He never had his hands on the ring, only on the ring's chain. And it was a nice movie device to foreshadow Boromir's ultimate temptation. It worked for the movie but I wouldn't call it an improvement over the book. Gerbil: Do I get the last word? Blackie: Sorry, Gerb. It's MY post, dude. Until next time, this has been Tolkien Crossfire. |
10-21-2002, 07:03 PM | #310 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Wow, you can't even get people to agree with you in you little fantasy skits and you're writing the dialog. That is pathetic.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 10-21-2002 at 07:10 PM. |
10-21-2002, 07:16 PM | #311 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London, UK
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BB - stop trolling. Either make discussion posts not framed in some silly twat method, or have the last word and think yourself fantastic - I can't be bothered to carry on a discussion where the other person spends as much time on trying (and failing - oh sorry, that's a subjective comment) to be funny, as opposed to actually reading and UNDERSTANDING what he's trying to reply to.
I'm actually interested in this thread, as long as it remains coherent and to the point. I think you have had more criticisms of your manner of getting your opinion across than your actual content. Work on this and we can discuss. Don't write like your last post. It either gives us numerous chances to direct jibes at you personally, or simply evokes no responce. Neither is constructive to the thread. Assuming you are interested in sticking to the point, of course. |
10-22-2002, 03:22 PM | #312 | |
protector of orphaned rabbits
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Quote:
kind of like saying "randomly inserted into select packages", isn't it?
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10-23-2002, 06:52 PM | #313 |
Lady of Westernesse
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Whoa! There's been quite the arguing here!
Well....to tell you the truth, I was reading The Hobbit when I saw the movie, and it got me excited about the next book. So every night I'd read and read and read, enjoying every moment until I finished. Then I started on FOTR. It was a big difference from the Hobbit. Very confusing for me. However, I had seen the movie and that helped me paint a better picture and better understanding of what's going on. I continued reading the series, and when I finished, the books went back on the shelf and went back to Harry Potter and whatever I could find in the library. Needless to say, LOTR sat there for quite a while during summer (I finished when summer vacation started) Then when the LOTR movie came out on video, I bought it, watched it, and fell in love with Tolkien's classic tale again. I read the books, drew LOTR pictures, pretended to be Frodo (I found a gold thingy of a key chain and took it off and pretended it was the One) and now I am working on a LOTR fanfic of my own. And if the movie hadn't replenished my feeling for the books, I never would have found Entmoot! So, to make a long story short, I like the books and movie equally. Yes, the movies will never compare to the books, because the books were there first and are the better, but the movie is awesome as well. Now, I'm not trying to pick a fight, revive an argument, or insult anyone (sorry if I did ) But that's what I'd like to say, and it's out. OK...don't hurt me! *ducks*
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Yada, yada, yada |
10-23-2002, 07:34 PM | #314 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Littleton, CO
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Folks, just a friendly aside here: Maybe we should watch the "colorful" ad hominems in the discussion as there are some very young Mooters who show up here. Not all of us are as old as Baba O'Reilly.....[wink, Cirdan!]
Durin's Bane: No offense taken. I thought you laid out a cogent thesis and backed it up with personal experience. I find nothing insulting in your opinions, nor in your mode of expressing them. Black Breathalizer, I have not seen ONE post which completely dismisses the film as total garbage. Again, you set up a "straw man" argument so you can feel all big about yourself when you burn it down. We have pointed out, collectively, again and again, how your argument style is absolutely pathetic, and have even attempted to steer you (with perhaps far too much subtlety) to improve your debating skills. All you have done in return is deride, obfuscate and insult. VERY bad form, Gertrude. Why don;t you look at ANOTHER thread I started a long time back, "Could Tolkien Himself Have Pleased Some?" and see how a person can make brash statements, start to actually READ other comments, and makes changes and grows in the course of the discussion. You might actually LEARN something, but I sincerely doubt it. Love and kisses, bropous. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO [P.S.: Cirdan, Gerb, you folks kick HINDER!!! Honorable mention: Luthien Tinuviel, theworkhorse and olsonm.]
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
10-26-2002, 07:45 AM | #315 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Looks like some of you have been a little naughty here while I was away. tsk tsk tsk!
Okay, if some of you want to continue your fruitless efforts to score debate points against me, let's try again with a few understandings: I will not use the g-word or put anyone down. I will try to stay on subject. I post here in the spirit of fun. All I ask is that you all do the same. Okay, back to the debate: Some of you continue to argue my points are not valid because the book has more depth than the movie. While this is a true statement, it has nothing to do with disproving my points. I've been talking story LINE not story depth. For the umpteen time, the question isn't whether the book or the movie is better, it is whether some of Jackson's plot devices actually make for a better overall Lord of the Rings story. In additional to the brilliant points I outlined earlier, I would add that featuring the love between Aragorn and Arwen in the story itself was also an improvement. It is a great romance and it adds to the story to feature it in something beside the books' appendix. |
10-26-2002, 09:50 AM | #316 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Littleton, CO
Posts: 1,176
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BB, are you familiar with the term, "megalomaniacal"?
How about "Inferiority complex"? You can find these and other handy-dandy terms describing self-aggrandizing psychological maladjustment in any good Psychology textbook. It might do you good to take a peek at how you are perceived. A few more handy terms to look up while you're at it: "Sweet-lemon rationalization"; "delusional"; "fugue"; "projection"; "denial."
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
10-26-2002, 10:03 AM | #317 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Artist: Cake
Album: Fashion Nugget Title: The Distance Reluctantly crouched at the starting line Engines pumping and thumping in time The green light flashes, the flags go up Churning and burning they yearn for the cup They deftly maneuver and muscle for rank Fuels burning fast on an empty tank Reckless and wild, they pour through the turns Their prowess is Potent and secretly stern As they speed through the finish, the flags go down The fans get up and they get out of town The arena is empty except for one man Still driving and striving as fast as he can The sun has gone down and the moon has come up Not long ago somebody left with the cup But he's driving and striving an hugging the turns And thinking of someone for who he still burns He's going the distance He's going for speed She's all alone, all alone, all alone in a time of need Because he's racing and pacing and plotting the course He's fighting and biting and riding on his horse He's going the distance No trophies, no flowers, no flashbulbs, no line He's haunted by something he cannot define Bowel shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse Assail him and bail him with monster truck force In his mind he's still driving, still making the grade She's hoping in time that her memories will fade 'Cause he's racing and pacing and plotting the course He's fighting and biting and riding on his horse The sun has gone down and the moon has come up Not long ago somebody left with the cup But he's striving and driving and hugging the turns And thinking of someone for who he still burns 'Cause he's going the distance, He's going for speed She's all alone All alone All alone In a time of need Because he's racing and pacing and plotting the course He's fighting and biting and riding on his horse He's racing and pacing and plotting the course He's fighting and biting and ridding on his horse He's going the distance He's going for speed He's going the distance
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 10-26-2002 at 10:04 AM. |
10-26-2002, 11:09 AM | #318 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
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I guess the approach is to attack me and continue calling me names when you have no real response to my points. Let me try sifting through the name-calling and insults and see if we can figure out the Loyal Tolkien Opposition (also known as...er, oops, you know, the P-word ) position here:
1. Tom Bombadil is absolutely essential to the story. 2. The stern and unlikable Boromir portrayed in the book serves the story better than the Boromir portrayed by Sean Bean. 3. The story is better served by having the Orcs attack after Frodo leaves in the Breaking of the Fellowship scene. 4. Even though it is part of Tolkien's story (see ROTK appendix), the plot is better served by not bringing it into the story until the wedding. 5. Aragorn shouldn't have self-doubts (er, except for the parts of the book where he showed self-doubt I guess.) 6. We don't want a scared Frodo (see # 5) Hmmm...considering what you're trying to defend, I guess I understand now why its easier to call me a conceited jerk. |
10-26-2002, 11:22 AM | #319 | |
protector of orphaned rabbits
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Oh Dear Lord. I thought this had ended. (edit) Nevermind, Im not going to say any of it. Too many little ears around. Why should I sit here and argue to one who won't listen?? Eariler in this thread. (Which I have read in whole, mind you) you stated that maybe us "purists" were upset that Jackson didn't crawl into our heads and project our perfect visions onto the big screen, well now im thinking maybe your just upset that we aren't crawling into YOUR head and projecting your perfect vision. I still stick with my statement that you are no smarter than ham, BB. And here's a peice of advice, read the posts, embrace the posts, uderstand the posts of your "compitition" here. That's it, Im leaving. Quote:
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Last edited by LuthienTinuviel : 10-26-2002 at 11:31 AM. |
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10-26-2002, 11:22 AM | #320 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Artist: 10000 Maniacs
Album: Blind Mans Zoo Title: Headstrong To your common sense firm arguments I won't listen to your voice of reason trying to change my mind. I mind my feelings and not your words. Didn't you notice I'm so headstrong even when I know I'm wrong? Take this to your heart and into your head now: before you waste your time, call a truce and call a draw. What's the use in mapping your views out in orderly form when it does nothing but confuse and anger me more? I mind my feelings and not your words. Didn't you notice I'm so headstrong. You're talking to a deaf stone wall. Take this to your heart and into your head now: the old wives' tale is true, I'll repeat it. All is fair in love and war, that's how the famous saying goes. Open up your eyes, see me for what I am: cast in iron, I won't break and I won't bend. Take this to your heart and into your head now: the old wives' tale is true, I'll repeat it. All is fair in love and war, that's how the famous saying goes. If I told you we were out to sea in a bottomless boat, you'd try anything to save us, you'd try anything to keep us afloat. And if we were living in a house afire, I don't believe that you could rush out and escape it and not rescue me. Take this to your heart and into your head now: the old wives' tale is true, I'll repeat it. All is fair in love and war, that's how the famous saying goes. Listen, I think they were talking to you. Hmmm... let me see if any lyrics from the "Clueless" soundtrack apply.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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