UK Politics

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by Janny

I know I'm a big advocate for the 'right thing for the wrong reason is the right thing' doctrine, but doesn't it concern you that this ban isn't actually about the hunting of foxes?

Doesn't it strike just a smidgeon of Labour trying to get Socialists to like them after the debacle of Iraq? The same thing as with Muslims and the Howard/Letwin Pig Poster?

Yes, and it's obviously working. Clever of them to do it at the last minute before an election, too, (since IIRC it was a pledge in their last-but-one manifesto) because this way all their left-wing supporters can feel good about voting for them again. Because they're, you know, really dealing with important Labour issues However, I'm also a fan of right things for wrong reasons.

I did find this funny though:

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Does anyone think that these people would know prejudice if it jumped up and bit them on the arse?

"These people"? Er - that's exactly what prejudice is...

[Draken]

I think there are lots of motives behind this interminable foxhunting debate!

I was a teenager living near Chesterfield when the miners' strike happened in 1984. The miners used the same sort of arguments we're hearing now: they were defending jobs, communities, a way of life. And they said they were resisting unjust laws (secondary and mass picketing had been made illegal). I smile a little when I hear the media talk about 'bitter confrontation' over this foxhunting lark - during the strike one miner was killed when a truck was driven through a picket line and one coal haulier was killed when a breeze block was thrown at his cab. And that was just in our corner of Derbyshire alone. The police presence became so heavy handed that the local amateur football leagues had to start postponing games - teams were being turned back at roadblocks under threat of arrest as the police thought they were groups of striking miners in disguise

My sister was very horsey so we knew a few people from the local hunt, and they were pleased, even smug, about the situation. The concept of mining communities wanting to defend their way of life caused particular amusement.

I never had that much time for the miners to be honest. Many of them were boorish trouble-makers protected by a too-powerful union which had far too much say in local politics. But having seen them in action, I didn't have much time for those who were so determined to eradicate them either.

I've heard it say that the Foxhunting Bill might just be payback from the current crop of Labour backbenchers who can remember 1984 - and to be honest I can believe it. As to losing a way of life - well, yes that is sad. Perhaps Otis Ferry could go and propound on the subject to the residents of any number of former pit towns and villages.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Hemel

Nurvingiel - this references job, horse, and hound losses. It's from the League Against Cruel Sports ... so it has its agenda too

Cheers Hemel. "Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - Babylon 5

That's really interesting Draken. (We need a more toned down eek smilie.)

*goes back to lurking*

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by sun-star

"These people"? Er - that's exactly what prejudice is...

Guilty as charged! Not sorry though...

Do you think they would know prejudice if it bit them on the arse?

Good point Draken. The major difference was that the miners actually were defending their communities, which were devastated as a result.

[sun-star]

I think they'd call what you feel about them as prejudice. If you think it's justified, that's fine, but that still makes it justified prejudice (if that isn't an oxymoron), and therefore they do experience prejudice - from you. I think that's ironic. If you'd just said they never experience hardship or the real destruction of a community, like the miners, that's true and provable. But you disproved your own point by being prejudiced yourself...

Q: When is prejudice not prejudice?
A: When it's my opinion...

[The Gaffer]

Heh. Prejudice is never justified, IMO, but the potential is always there. We have to be aware of it in ourselves. While I'd accept that I could well be prejudiced against the Countryside Alliance, I would try not to treat them as individuals any differently.

But my observation has been that they tell lies, they think it's OK to kill foxes for fun and they do charming stuff like force their employees to attend political rallies in support of their views. They also seem to think it's OK to take our taxes in subsidies but not obey our laws.

[Draken]

Well I just hope these damned tree-hugging do-gooders don't turn their attention to the fine old English sport of worm-baiting. Unchecked worms can cause untold harm to a fine lawn. And nothing beats the thrill of stepping out onto the grass one fine crisp morn and letting slip the wormhounds. It's part of the very fabric of our life. Needless to say the wormhounds are trained to tear the worms to tiny bits in a very humane way - they hardly feel a thing.

And think of the misery a ban would bring! We'd have to put down all the wormhounds for a start. What other use is there for a dog that's a metre long but only 2mm high, I ask you?

I blame these townies with patios and decking. They don't understand our ways.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

are you being juts a little sarcastic, draken?

[Draken]

Sarcastic? Moi?

[sun-star]

Apparently there actually is a sport (I use the term loosely) of worm-charming. It's pretty much like you describe, except without the 2mm high wormhounds, which takes all the fun out of it really.

Surely though the most efficient way to hunt worms is with well-trained early birds?

[Draken]

Birds? Charming WITHOUT wormhounds? Begone with your new-fangled ways! You just don't understand our time-honoured traditions!

As Shakespeare himself said in the oft-overlooked 'Taming of the Worm':

"And fine men abed across this parish will forever consider themselves accursed that they heeded not the sounding of the worm horn nor the baying of the wormhound, and slumbered on when they could have come a-worming this April morn."

Act III Scene 4 (just before the rather contrived multiple-suicides)

[sun-star]

That's the one that goes on:
And hold their manhoods cheap, whiles any speaks
That chased with us upon wormhunting day"

or elsewhere in the same play

I see you stand like wormhounds in the slips,
Straining upon the start. The game’s afoot:
Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge
Cry ‘God for Harry! England and Saint George!’

*wipes away a patriotic tear*

[Janny]

What do people think of the case of the young Muslim woman who has won the right to wear her religious clothes at school?

More controversially, what do you make of her suggestion that she will now sue the school for damages?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Janny

What do people think of the case of the young Muslim woman who has won the right to wear her religious clothes at school?

More controversially, what do you make of her suggestion that she will now sue the school for damages?

Well I think she should be able to wear her religious clothes to school. Here in the US it isn't even an issue - there was a school in some state that tried to prevent a muslim student from wearing her headscarf and the school lost the case (as it should have).

Why shouldn't she be allowed to wear her religious garb to school? If you want religious tolerance - than the best thing to encourage that is to see that people are different and not to hide those differences. This is why I think that France's headscarf ban is completely wrong.

As for having an opinion on whether she should sue the school for damages - I would have to knwo more about the case - such as did the school harass her, did teacher harass her, did students harass her with teachers or faculty members looking on or knowing about it. etc etc. If those are the cases - then yes - I think she should sue the school.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i don't know the detrails of the case janny, although the law report was in the guardian, too busy looking at the latest satirical offerings in Comment & Analysis, I shouldn't wonder but i see no reason for her to not wear religious clothing if she is from a religious background, i am sure Michael Howerd would disagree on that, though!
< that is at michael howerd, btw (thought i had better add that as there is a lot of anti- going about )

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

< that is at michael howerd, btw (thought i had better add that as there is a lot of anti- going about )

I bite my thumb at the anti- sentiment.

[Janny]

I think the school's case was that what she wanted to wear covered the school tie, thus not distinguishing her as a pupil.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/b...ts/4310545.stm
http://education.guardian.co.uk/fait...428552,00.html

Neither mention the desire for compensation, but that's the left side for you.
Note also, as was missed by today's Telegraph, that the girl was being represented by a one Ms Cherie Booth QC.

PS: I dig the whole biting my thumb thing.

I do not roll my eyes at thee, sir, but I do roll my eyes.
~ Romeo and Juliet, Act 1, Scene 1.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

is that not a conflict of interests?
what with schools being administered by LEA's, which are
technically the Gov'ts representatives

[Janny]

No, it's betting on both red and black.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Janny

I think the school's case was that what she wanted to wear covered the school tie, thus not distinguishing her as a pupil.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/b...ts/4310545.stm
http://education.guardian.co.uk/fait...428552,00.html

Neither mention the desire for compensation, but that's the left side for you.
Note also, as was missed by today's Telegraph, that the girl was being represented by a one Ms Cherie Booth QC.

Well if this is a private school - then that's different - they can dictate whatever they wish. But I know that many public schools in Britain require a dress code too. So I'm assuming it's a public school that has a uniform.

BTW - I just wanted to say that this statement is complete bull...

"Rather it was a consequence of an atmosphere that has been created in Western societies post 9/11, an atmosphere in which Islam has been made a target for vilification in the name of the 'war on terror'," she said.

Muslim students are still free to wear their religious attire if they wish in teh US. it may not be that way in Europe - but here they are free to and have a protected right to be able to.

PS: I dig the whole biting my thumb thing.

I do not roll my eyes at thee, sir, but I do roll my eyes.
~ Romeo and Juliet, Act 1, Scene 1.

Too funny. I figured you would get my Romeo and Juliet reference.