10-20-2003, 06:18 PM | #301 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-20-2003 at 06:19 PM. |
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10-20-2003, 06:25 PM | #302 |
Elf Lord
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"Tell the Palestinians and Israelis that it's a small conflict. It's not small - it's what the muslims use as a rallying cry against the west. It is MAJOR conflict on a small scale."
Well what the heck do you think the concept of limited-scale conflict implies? <BOGGLE> Do you think any of the other "limited scale" conflicts were any less traumatic or brutal, or didn't evoke strong emotions among people sympathetic to one side or the other, or draw in volunteers and mercenaries, and profiteers- material and political? "Israel and the palestinian terrorities are small - but the conflict is not. Small scale conlficts were the various wars waged between the US and the Soviet Union during the cold war in order to keep each side in check." And um... The conflict between the USSR and the US was a small conflict? That is what you seem to be implying. "Without those wars - Europe would be communist as would most of the rest of the world. The US didn't have to fight the Soviet Union - it coudl have sat back - but what would the world look like today? I don't think I would want to live in that world." I suppose you would have preferred the resolution that involved thermonuclear destruction? Did you miss the point? Limited scale conflict is exactly what is going on in palestine/isreal. And it may, unfortunately, be EXACTLY what is needed. I really don't know what you're squawking about?! I think you need to watch more cartoons man... ________________________________ <insert> Oh no! You made me miss Scooby-do!
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 10-20-2003 at 06:26 PM. |
10-20-2003, 06:36 PM | #303 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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10-20-2003, 06:39 PM | #304 | ||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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10-20-2003, 07:05 PM | #305 |
Elf Lord
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"Small scale conflicts are between large militarily powerful countries to prevent huge breakouts of war. This is not the case between Israel and the Palestinians."
Why do you not see it that way? Isreael- Western powers. The US, and other alligned economic powers. Palestine- Arabian powers. Oil producing countries in the region and Islamic culturally allied powers. Actually, if I were of a totally hopeless point of view, I'd be pointing out that this is very similar to the situations preceding those little conflicts known as crusades... You can't only look at military power. Economic power is just as important. As is World opinion, to a limited degree. "No - I don't think that. But the difference was who the wars were really being fought by. The wars in South America - were basically between the Soviet Union and the US. Afganistan - Soviet Union and US. Iran/Iraq - Soviet Union and US." And the Palistenians are backed by who? And the Isreali's are backed by who? "That is not what I'm saying at all. There was the cold war - within that "non-violent" war - there were many many wars between our two countries. But were the US and Soviet Union ever at "war"? NO - we were never at war - we fought our wars through other countries." I would venture to guess that when (if) the Isreali and Palestinian people find out how they have been manipulated, they are going to be pretty pissed. Or did you think that I was saying that the conflict was about the Palesitinians and the Isreali government when I noted it was a "limited-scale conflict"? "If the US just said - welll we want peace - we'll let the Soviet Union have South America, they haven't attacked us, or Afganistan, or Iran - the Soviet Union would have gotten way too powerful for the West to deal with - just like World War II Germany had gotten." Not to mention that the people in South America or Afgan, or Iran would probably have gotten awfully upset about the US making important decisions about who their allies can and cannot be. Yeesh. It smacks of imperialism. "It is not a small scale conflict partially because it is not between TWO large powers. Small scale conflicts help prevent two very powerful countries from destroying the world. This is NOT what is happening there. The conflict is betwene israel and the Palestinians and basically adds fuel to the other Muslim conflicts - but is NOT being fought to prevent a large power from getting the upper hand." I think you need to re-evaluate what you call a large power. Or do you not regard the Islamic world as a large power? I would pretty much think that a war with Arabia would cause a lot of destruction world wide. I find your argument unconvincing. It adds fuel? It attracts fuel!! Anyone and everyone with an axe to grind is interested, becasue it affords them opportunities to advance their own agenda. Not to mention that it has the tendancy to spill outside of the nicely defined borders and into other areas, just like any other "limited-scale conflict". (Lets bomb Cambodia again! Or <insert similar blunder by the USSR here>) "I reserve my cartoon watching fot Saturday mornings." The news IS one of my favorite cartoons. I think they are all very funny. And oh so entertaining. But not as good as the meddling kids. Or the history channel... Or the Major University Library I work in... Oh if only Scooby would go to the middle east, I'm sure he would have everything solved in 30 minutes.... "Sorry - but they'll have repeats. " What? You mean re-runs?! Hmm... I shall have to make a note of this human advancement in culture.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
10-20-2003, 07:11 PM | #306 |
Elf Lord
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ACK! The Simpsons are on!
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
10-20-2003, 08:03 PM | #307 | |||||||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-21-2003, 07:26 AM | #308 |
im quite stupid
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JD you make a lot of talk about how these problems have to be solved! How exctally are you going to solves these problems? All i see your government doing is drawing lines in the sand. You cannot in this conflict come out and say we are in support of one side no one side is in the right at all in this conflict!
You are drawing lines in the sand and thats a very dangerous and some would say stupid thing to do because once a line is drawn all you can do is cross it. As for all this talk about humans been by nature apt to war like its some kinda reflex (its cold go put a jumper on etc) thats is very true! Allready in this country people are looking over there shoulders and saying to themselves 'theres a lot more black,white,asian people here than there was before' the phrase i heard most often muttred is 'they are taking over'! I saw it at college the chinease people stuck together, the asians (whom there were scaresly less than the white) the whites and the true black people mixed in pretty well but the lines are been drawn the country is segregation off into factions and this worries me greatly. I do firmly believe that in my lifetime i will see the closest thing to a civil war you could possiably imgin
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10-21-2003, 01:34 PM | #309 |
Elf Lord
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"Because the Israeli - Palestinian conflict is causing more problems than it is solving. It would be MUCH better for the US and the world if the the conflict was resolved."
And who said limited scale conflict was always an effective solution? But I think at this point, that a full scale war between the US, Isreal, (possibly) Turkey and Syria, Egypt, Jordon (for argument's sake), Saudi Arabia, and posibly Iran would be a bit worse. As for having it resolved, well go right ahead. Stick your hand in the bees nest... It would be better for the US to have the conflict resolved. It would be a considerable consolidation of political power through an influential ally. As for whether it would be better for the world, I'm afraid I have to reserve judgement on that. "Sorry to point this out to you again - but Europe sides more with the Palestinians." Err, why do you bother to mention Europe? I didn't. Or didn't you notice the shift in Allies during the most recent conflict? "The palestinian conflict nothing to do with oil. The main thing that the Palestinian - Israeli conflict has ever been over is the hatred of Jews and the elimination of Israel." JD, were you sleepy? Oil producing countries is one way of refering to the richer Arab states. I didn't say anything about oil being part of the conflict. It IS however part of the economic picture of the region, and probably the only real reason the US is interested in the Area, aside from special interest groups. I'm quite aware of the origins of Isreal and why the Palestinains feel like someone moved them off their land, AND the history of conflict for millenia before that. "Which crusades woudl those be? The European crusades were major battles that extended fromt he south ot France the Jerusalem and beyond. I woudl hardly call that a small copnflict. It was also in response to muslims attacking and taking over southern Europe." Again, I think you are sleepy. The crusade analogy was to point out a LARGE SCALE conflict, and what it was like historically. And no, not all of them were in response to Moorish invasions. Some where Papal sanctioned to "free the holy land". "And who are we against in this global conflict? We support Israel because otherwise they would be forced off the face of the earth. They were the ones INITIALLY attacked by the Arabb countries. Israel did not try to claim palestinian land before they were attacked." Globally? It's western culture vs islamic culture, and the battle lines may never be neatly drawn. That's one of the reasons terrorism is such an effective method currently. There are no clear battle lines. As for the root causes of the isreali/palestinian conflict, I don't see it as germane to what I'm pointing out. You could easily go back 1000 years and point out some more greivences. Neither side is lily white. They both have blood on their hands. "Pissed at who? Who has manipulated Israel?" Take a wild guess. Couldn't be the same people who have been funding their defense for all these decades. But perhaps manipulate IS too strong a word. More like, enabled. Enabling, like you do with an alcoholic... "It is obvious that the ilks like Osama bin Ladin want the conflict to continue - because it is a rallying cry for his cause." It's not just Al-Quida. There are many interests that would like to see the conflict resolved in favor of the Palestinians... As for prolonging the conflict, that's an interesting view. It's not prolonging the conflict if you're trying to win and haven't given up... "The US has no interest in the Israel - palestinian conflict to continue - because we see that it prevents peace in the rest of the region." Why yes the US does want the conflict to end. It would be effectively a succesful resolution in the limited scale conflict. But is it actually preventing peace in the rest of the region? Or an even better question, will it promote stability if the conflict isn't resolved in a manner that will suit both sides? cont.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
10-21-2003, 01:37 PM | #310 |
Elf Lord
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"Oh - of course it was just teh big bad evil US that had anything to do with that. The Soviet Union had nothing whatsoever to do with US reactions. We weren't imperialistic - we didn't OWN half of Europe like the Soviet Union did."
Your sarcasm leaves something to be desired. It's missing that biting edge... The fact that the US felt it had to force policies on other countries is indicative of how we chose to fight the cold war. Economic Imperialism versus Political Imperialism. No, we didn't "own" anyone. We just jerked the strings. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it backfired. I find it amazing that you can slip into that role of martyr so easily. I wouldn't characterize either the US or the USSR as evil. So there's no need for you to try to put word in my mouth. But then, this is a digression from the main topic. "They're not a organized power. Do you think the Soviet Union would have allowed the United States to attack East Germany like we did with Iraq? or do you have only certain countries in mind? " Well finally, you have managed to present a salient point. They are not politically organized. They are however, culturally organized. In some instances, that could be far, far worse. Just ask the British... And while you're on the subject of Iraq, Iraq was a rogue state. It wasn't an Islamic state, The Baath party were fascists, not Islamic. They were in fact toward the secular end of the scale, and as such not at all favored by any of the other countries in the area. As much as they complained, they didn't like the little tin-dictator anymore than we did. Now that he's gone you can expect to hear a lot MORE complaining that the US is still there. "Cambodia was bombed because the North Vietnamese were attcking from Cambodia." I'm definitely going to stop throwing bait in front of you. You can't avoid snarfling it up... What do you think would happen if the Palestinian forces were attacking from, oh Syria- Whoops, already bombed there, Lebanon.. whoops already bombed there.. Sigh. "And the Israeli - Palestinian conflict has spilled over - it's the damn rallying cry for all the fanatical clerics. You deny that Jews are blindly HATED in the Middle East? If there was peace between Israel and the Palestinians - what would they use to demonstrate that the Jews are evil?" What would the new world order use to show that Muslims are evil?! Well at least you can see the demagoguery on one side. Now open your other eye. How blindly do you think Muslims are hated in some areas now? There won't BE peace because there are too many vested interests on BOTH sides to keep the war going. Which I would say is typical of a limited scale conflict gone awry
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
10-21-2003, 04:56 PM | #311 | ||
Elf Lord
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Second, we attacked Lebanon continuously in the last 20 years (after the Lebanon war, 1982-83), until three years ago. 3 years ago we got out of Lebanon. It was quiet from then. comparatively. Third, the bombs in Syria were a warning. It wasn't to destroy the terror organizations camps in Syria, obviously. Quote:
And again, many people dislike (don't want to use 'hate') muslims (which are arabs here) with a reason. (not very convincing one; but a reason. As I said, there's no point of hating a whole religion because of the religion. From the Proclamation of Independence: "it (Israel) will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture;..." - it doesn't prove anyrthing of course; it's just one of the most important laws.) |
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10-21-2003, 06:37 PM | #312 |
Elf Lord
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"That's different:"
Sorry but I'm immediatly skeptical of statements that start with those words... "First, Syria wa already an enemy of us before we started attacking it. I don't it should be thaty a big surprise." No it's not a surprise. The recent activity however was. I was not refering to the "30-day war" you know... "We won't attack in Jordan, for example, since we have peace there." And likely Jordan is not going to offer harbor to insurgent forces or terrorists, because they are also a (nominally) US aligned ally. "Second, we attacked Lebanon continuously in the last 20 years (after the Lebanon war, 1982-83), until three years ago. 3 years ago we got out of Lebanon. It was quiet from then. comparatively." This is an interesting case. One might argue that the bombing created as many, if not more, problems than it solved. It certainly kept up the conflict in an area that was removed from the Isreali governments primary concerns. That is of course, the purpose of a "buffer zone". "Third, the bombs in Syria were a warning. It wasn't to destroy the terror organizations camps in Syria, obviously." I understand your point, but you haven't sufficiently demonstrated that there is a real difference to me. The initial incursions into laos and cambodia were "limited strikes" also. Escalation occured after the initial strikes failed to have any positive results. "That is different, too. I'm not trying to be the victim here, but there are 1.6 billion muslims, and 13 million jews... " I also understand your position. But all that really means is that the Muslims are even less likely to put up with it. And the results are likely to be even more horrific... Besides the fact that it's a disingenious argument. Why is hate different when applied to a majority or a minority? The only difference is one of vulnerability to it's effects. In ethical terms, there isn't a real difference. "And again, many people dislike (don't want to use 'hate') muslims (which are arabs here) with a reason. (not very convincing one; but a reason." Hrmm... That's a rather shakey position. Dislike instead of hatred, and unconvincing reasons? I'm sorry but it sounds just as irrational as any other similar position. "As I said, there's no point of hating a whole religion because of the religion. From the Proclamation of Independence: "it (Israel) will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture;..." - it doesn't prove anyrthing of course; it's just one of the most important laws." A very laudible statement. And it would be wonderful if all of the people in the region subscribed to that ideal, and wanted to participate in such a democratic government. But for some reason it's not happening. The question you have to ask is why?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 10-21-2003 at 06:42 PM. |
10-21-2003, 09:54 PM | #313 | |
Elven Warrior
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"Lot of people say this city looks like Hell," Allie said. She took a long drag from her cigarette. The glowing tip burned a hole in the darkness. "Most people never been to Hell," Jacob said. She looked at him and he could hear the smile in her voice. "And I suppose you have?" |
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10-22-2003, 04:10 AM | #314 |
Elf Lord
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Been away for 5 days and the thread is STILL about Israel/Palestine. Still, that was an interesting detour via warfare.
I'd like to pick up the comment someone made a few pages back, along the lines of "someone needs to do the counter-intuitive thing". This puts me in mind of the Truth and Reconciliation Committees in South Africa. In the 1980s, pretty much everone agreed that there was going to be a bloodbath in South Africa before the whites handed over power. Here you had groups of people who were brought up under apartheid who, we predicted, would not be able to break out of that mindset without the use of overwhelming force. It seems to me that the existence of a process (the Committees) where people could confess to the crimes they committed, yet not be hacked to pieces by a mob, has made a huge contribution to enabling the population to escape from that prejudiced mindset. Any comments? |
10-22-2003, 10:34 AM | #315 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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I don't understand you - you first say it's not a surprise, and then say it is? Quote:
2. there are terrorists in Jordan. The goverment doesn't encourage them, or help them - but they do exist. Quote:
And there is no buffer zone now. Quote:
And our strikes are limited - and will stay limited - because they are succesful too. (unlike...) Quote:
And we should care if we want to survive. Quote:
Second thought - the Muslims probably think so too (they have a reason) - but they, as you said, attack us blindly. I will continue afterwards. I'm busy. |
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10-22-2003, 01:06 PM | #316 | |
Lady of Letters
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Not that there isn't a problem with a minority - I don't deny that - but I'm not convinced it's as bad as you make out. I wouldn't like to give the rest of the board the impression that the UK is on the verge of a race war
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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10-22-2003, 01:11 PM | #317 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-22-2003, 02:00 PM | #318 | |
Elf Lord
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10-22-2003, 04:15 PM | #319 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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If students from two different junior highs enter a single high school - they will in the beginning only hang out with the people from their previous school. This changes though as the weeks go on. It's the same thing with immigration - just on a larger scale.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-22-2003 at 04:18 PM. |
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10-31-2003, 01:57 PM | #320 | |
Quasi Evil
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(cont. in next message)
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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