Peter Jackson has improved Tolkien

[Cirdan]

Gerbil, I heard it this way:

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach criticize.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Gerbil
You are entitled to your view, we are entitled to ours. That some of us have clearly and definatively proved some of your points wrong, while you have refuted none of our claims (while scathingly pointing out us getting worked up over issues YOU raised initially) shows you will not accept you are wrong. More to the point, you won't even accept that differences of opinions may exist.

Baloney. I have acknowledged on many occasions here that the movie and the book complement each other. I have acknowledged that there can be differences of opinion. What I have said - and continue to believe - is that there is something suspect about a Tolkien "fan" who finds NOTHING redeemable in the movie. My theory is that these "fans" are the type of quazi-intellectual, coffee house, elitist snobs who don't like sharing "their" Tolkien with the rest of us. And for the umpteenth time, if you LIKED PARTS but not all of the movie, this broad generalization DOES NOT apply to you.

You were correct, however, in saying I've been "proven" wrong. You guys have been nailing me with an absolutely amazing defense of your position. My favorite examples are:

Originally posted by Cirdan
On ferry: Stupid hobbits out-running a horse. So unbelievable it distracts the viewer.

On Rivendell: Another place that needed cutting, only for screenplay purposes. The changes were a bit pointless except to fullfill a need to make the cast more seem cute and cuddly.

On The Breaking of the Fellowship: Better? N-O.

I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to these...um, irrefuteable facts...from your side.

[Cirdan]

[
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Originally posted by Cirdan
On ferry: Stupid hobbits out-running a horse. So unbelievable it distracts the viewer.

On Rivendell: Another place that needed cutting, only for screenplay purposes. The changes were a bit pointless except to fullfill a need to make the cast more seem cute and cuddly.

On The Breaking of the Fellowship: Better? N-O.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to these...um, irrefuteable facts...from your side.

Yes, your cartoon like thoughts an how "cool" is a scene can only be addressed in similar terms. I have laid out both entire story lines in comparison. You still have only replied to that by making immature snide comments. You reference non-existent critics as some kind of fact. You are such a purile little turd that you expect people to choose between hating the movie or saying it improves Tolkien. No one but you , of anyone here or anywhere else, has ever claimed the movie is better. The burden of proof is on you since you DON'T have the popular opinion on your side, in ANY arena. Since there is no proof, but ONLY opinion, you are wrong. REFUTE THAT, JACKASS.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Some of you purists may disagree, but in writing the screenplays to his movies, I think it's clear that PJ actually improved on The Master's great work.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Tolkien fan. But I love the changes that Jackson has made. Some of my favorites include:

Boromir's character. PJ made him much more "human." In the movie version, you could actually empathize with Boromir in a way you didn't in the book. Who didn't like the way he related to Merry and Pippin?

The Breaking of the Fellowship. PJ's version tied things together in a way that Tolkien wasn't able to do.

Arwen. Why didn't Tolkien highlight this beautiful love story? Using her in the flight to the ford was a stroke of genius.

I can't wait to see what improvements Jackson and Co. make to TTT!!!

So a huge Tolkien fan thinks a screenplay adaptation fixes all the "flaws" in the books. One of these statements is a lie designed only to provoke effect.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Cirdan
B1C1 A Long Expected Party
PJ does a real number one this one. While the set is well done the story and characters are axed right away. Merry and Pippin begin their transformation into drunken, stealing stumblebums. Bilbo's disappearance is not masked by Gandlaf's pyrotechnics so the disappearing act is now no longer secret. Pointless changes to the original story that don't enhance it.

B1C2 The Shadow of the Past
This chapter is sliced into the party in the film. Lost is the passage of time, the departure of Gandalf and the time needed for the threat from Mordor to grow as oppossed to Gandalf seeming oblivious to the threat. The dialog in the chapter was better preserved in the film than in most others. Lost is the greater detail and history of the ring. The depiction of Gandalf as wild-eyed and fearful came too early in the film. It wasn't neccessary to ramp up the pace. The subtlety of the steadily rising danger is given over to a car chase pace.

B1C3 Three is Company
Here again the pace of the movie is off. The joining of the three is left to dumb coincidence instead of friendship and loyalty. The trip to the Brandywine is compressed and the visit with the elves is sqeezed out. The sense of just missing danger and not quite understandiing it fully is cut out.

B1C4 A Shortcut to Mushrooms
Farmer Maggot is scaled back from a man who knows more than he let's on into a sickle. Merry stumbles in early an Pippin late, again they are stealing and have very little concern for Frodo. The casting of the two stooges is almost complete, but it fails to reach the humor level of fantasy film adaptations such as "Willow". I don't love her she kicked me in the face!. Lost too is the concept of safe havens. JRRT understood that it was ridiculous for hobbits on foot to elude mounted pursuers. The scene with the Black Rider just prior to the crossing at the ferry was absurd. One minute Frodo is dancing around at the feet of the Rider and the next he is outpacing it to the ferry.

B1C5 A Conspiracy Unmasked
This chapter was totally deleted in the film so there is little to compare. In the book it serves to reveal deeper character aspects of Merry, Pippin, and Sam. They are there because of a deep friendship with Frodo and not dumb luck. Again the steal, the safe havens, and the planning are thrown out for the sake of action, laughs (hardly), covenience.

B1C6 The Old Forest
The difficulty of the journey in the physical sense is cut out here as well. Lots of good Shire history tossed out. The bravery and clever strategy to avoid the riders is gone. While this chapter is one of the less useful in the book, it does add to the building sense that there is more to fear in the world than a few black riders. The beginnings of Frodo's heroic streak begins to show in the dealings with the Willow.

[

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Cirdan
B1C7 In the House of Tom Bombadil
Important to the creation of the fastasy is Tom B. and Goldberry. Unexpected allies are critical to the thread of the story. It is not one hobbit and his posse against the world. The enigmatic pair lend a bit of mystery to the story.

B1C8 Fog on the Barrow-Downs
A terrible loss to the story. The struggle against evil spirits allows the character to prepare for the future dealings. We see, in the book, the protagonist's growth as a leader. The aquisition of the barrow-wights swords must be changed to Strider carrying around a buch of extra swords.

B1C8 At the Sign of the Prancing Pony
This chapter got more attention from the screenwriter. Most is well done except Pippin must step up once again to play the buffoon. Frodo must remain, in the film, the upright igenue. The bit with the ring following the string onto Frodo's finger was weak even by film standards.

B1C9 Strider
The elimination of Gandalf's letter also deletes the lead in of Strider as a fellow to be trusted. Instead of the rising phobia of the hobbits being allayed by and introduction from Gandalf, the hobbit's must take his word at the end of the sword.

B1C10 A Knife in the Dark
Excised for brevity are the valor of Fatty Bolger, the beauty and history of the Tale of Beren and Luthien, the beaning of Bill Ferny, and the stealthy approach to weathertop. Again, the difficulty of the weeks long journey is crammed into a theme park scale of existence. "Quick let's go from the inn over to wraith mountain." This is the point were in the book the character development is set and the story begins to expand. At this point the film needs to cut more and more from the story.

B1C11 Flight to the Ford
Oh dear, the film is so bad here in so many ways. Yes the killing of of Glorfindel was over-the-top political correctness at it's most nauseating. Where were the stunt riders in the tree weaving scenes? Frodo's bravery falls victim as well. Elrond and Gandlaf's participation is gone as well. The elves that are abroad are no more, so there is little help in delaying the riders. Frodo's wound is absurdly grotesque, looking like some alien infestation. Lunch by the stone trolls is a great link to the Hobbit that is lost.

If one stops forgiving the screenplay for excising chunks of the story for the purposes of brevity, then there is no comparison; the book outstrips the movie at every turn. If you have diffculty with the English language or prefer the comic book or reader's digest versions of stories, then the movie may be better for you. Those could be the only reasons for preferring an abreviated, thinner, and simplistic version of the tale.

Stay tuned for book two.

[Gerbil]

I have acknowledged that there can be differences of opinion.

OK, then I apologise for that comment - only I do not recall reading anything like this. I am not about to claim my memory is 100% though

What I have said - and continue to believe - is that there is something suspect about a Tolkien "fan" who finds NOTHING redeemable in the movie.

Hmmm OK, if that was what this thread was about then I'd be hard pushed to argue with you, since I enjoy the movie immensely. To contrast the bits that annoy me more and more each time I see it, are the bits that actually get better with repeated viewing.
However, I am sure I am not the only one who would point out that your last comment is a far cry from claiming that PJ improved on Tolkien. If you are merely trying to point out that the movie, despite it's flaws, is still great, then you'd have more people on your side. That's NOT been the thrust though - you are claiming PJ IMPROVED on Tolkien, which many disagree with.

My theory is that these "fans" are the type of quazi-intellectual, coffee house, elitist snobs who don't like sharing "their" Tolkien with the rest of us.

And my theory is we all love a good steretype

You were correct, however, in saying I've been "proven" wrong. You guys have been nailing me with an absolutely amazing defense of your position. My favorite examples are:

Nicely chosen array of 'points', none of which were from me. Normally I wouldn't bother pointing this out only recently for some reason on various lists, people are getting into the habit of attributing quotes to me which I haven't said, and it's beginning to annoy me. Anyway, it's not 'my side' versus you - other people disagreeing with you have their own opinions not necessarily entirely in accord with mine. As far as I'm aware plenty of people would disagree with me because I firmly believe the film was 'better' without Bombadil. Not that PJ improved on Tolkien's versions of events, simply that the idea of anyone trying to convey Bombadil in film as Tolkien envisaged leaves me shuddering in sheer horror.
I am not aware of you having responded to my (in my opinion ) long and detailed reply to your post a few pages ago.
Finally, I think the others answered some of your issues a bit more rationally nearer the start of the thread - it's had a tendency to veer slightly towards name-calling and digs at each other, hardly a breeding ground for a rational discussion

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I have acknowledged that there can be differences of opinion.

Then let it be! It is obvious that people's opinions, especially on things that have been around as long as Tolkien, are most likely steadfast. It is pointless to continue to argue over things when both sides know that they aren't going to back down.

To many of the Tolkien fans, including me, nothing could improve Tolkien. No, it is not perfect, but Jackson's film (though I do love it) is far from perfect as well, as a film and as an adaptation of the books (but more so the latter).

Perhaps we should start a thread called "Brian Sibley has improved Tolkien" and see what other arguments we can come up with.

And 'amen, Brotha Gerbil'

[Black Breathalizer]

Welcome to Tolkien Crossfire...on the RIGHT is Gerbil...(we see a cute little brown gerbil) ... and on the LEFT is Black Breathalizer (we see a dashingly handsome dude in a ringwraith cloak and hood). Tonight's question: Did Peter Jackson make a better Boromir than JRR Tolkien?

Blackie: This one is a no-brainer, Gerbil. Jackson's Boromir gave us a more fully realized character; one that was likeable but with definite flaws.

Gerbil: I totally disagree. Jackson's Boromir is ludicrously inconsistent and too down to earth.

Blackie: Too down to earth? He came across as arrogant, self-centered, and deeply devoted to his homeland just as Tolkien described him in the book. The only thing Jackson added was to make him less of a cardboard character by a) highlighting his fondness for Merry & Pippen; b) emphasizing to a greater extent his love for his homeland; and c) paying tribute to Aragorn on his deathbed.

Gerbil: Yeah, well his actions weaken the ring's power immensely. Having him actually get his hands on the ring was utter stupidity.

Blackie: He never had his hands on the ring, only on the ring's chain. And it was a nice movie device to foreshadow Boromir's ultimate temptation. It worked for the movie but I wouldn't call it an improvement over the book.

Gerbil: Do I get the last word?

Blackie: Sorry, Gerb. It's MY post, dude. Until next time, this has been Tolkien Crossfire.

[Cirdan]

Wow, you can't even get people to agree with you in you little fantasy skits and you're writing the dialog. That is pathetic.

[Gerbil]

BB - stop trolling. Either make discussion posts not framed in some silly twat method, or have the last word and think yourself fantastic - I can't be bothered to carry on a discussion where the other person spends as much time on trying (and failing - oh sorry, that's a subjective comment) to be funny, as opposed to actually reading and UNDERSTANDING what he's trying to reply to.

I'm actually interested in this thread, as long as it remains coherent and to the point. I think you have had more criticisms of your manner of getting your opinion across than your actual content.

Work on this and we can discuss. Don't write like your last post. It either gives us numerous chances to direct jibes at you personally, or simply evokes no responce. Neither is constructive to the thread. Assuming you are interested in sticking to the point, of course.

[LuthienTinuviel]

this broad generalization DOES NOT apply to you.

kind of like saying "randomly inserted into select packages", isn't it?

[durin's bane]

Whoa! There's been quite the arguing here!

Well....to tell you the truth, I was reading The Hobbit when I saw the movie, and it got me excited about the next book. So every night I'd read and read and read, enjoying every moment until I finished. Then I started on FOTR. It was a big difference from the Hobbit. Very confusing for me. However, I had seen the movie and that helped me paint a better picture and better understanding of what's going on. I continued reading the series, and when I finished, the books went back on the shelf and went back to Harry Potter and whatever I could find in the library. Needless to say, LOTR sat there for quite a while during summer (I finished when summer vacation started) Then when the LOTR movie came out on video, I bought it, watched it, and fell in love with Tolkien's classic tale again. I read the books, drew LOTR pictures, pretended to be Frodo (I found a gold thingy of a key chain and took it off and pretended it was the One) and now I
am working on a LOTR fanfic of my own. And if the movie hadn't replenished my feeling for the books, I never would have found Entmoot!
So, to make a long story short, I like the books and movie equally. Yes, the movies will never compare to the books, because the books were there first and are the better, but the movie is awesome as well.

Now, I'm not trying to pick a fight, revive an argument, or insult anyone (sorry if I did ) But that's what I'd like to say, and it's out. OK...don't hurt me! *ducks*

[bropous]

Folks, just a friendly aside here: Maybe we should watch the "colorful" ad hominems in the discussion as there are some very young Mooters who show up here. Not all of us are as old as Baba O'Reilly.....[wink, Cirdan!]

Durin's Bane: No offense taken. I thought you laid out a cogent thesis and backed it up with personal experience. I find nothing insulting in your opinions, nor in your mode of expressing them.

Black Breathalizer, I have not seen ONE post which completely dismisses the film as total garbage. Again, you set up a "straw man" argument so you can feel all big about yourself when you burn it down.

We have pointed out, collectively, again and again, how your argument style is absolutely pathetic, and have even attempted to steer you (with perhaps far too much subtlety) to improve your debating skills. All you have done in return is deride, obfuscate and insult. VERY bad form, Gertrude.

Why don;t you look at ANOTHER thread I started a long time back, "Could Tolkien Himself Have Pleased Some?" and see how a person can make brash statements, start to actually READ other comments, and makes changes and grows in the course of the discussion. You might actually LEARN something, but I sincerely doubt it.

Love and kisses,

bropous.
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO

[P.S.: Cirdan, Gerb, you folks kick HINDER!!! Honorable mention: Luthien Tinuviel, theworkhorse and olsonm.]

[Black Breathalizer]

Looks like some of you have been a little naughty here while I was away. tsk tsk tsk!

Okay, if some of you want to continue your fruitless efforts to score debate points against me, let's try again with a few understandings: I will not use the g-word or put anyone down. I will try to stay on subject. I post here in the spirit of fun. All I ask is that you all do the same. Okay, back to the debate:

Some of you continue to argue my points are not valid because the book has more depth than the movie. While this is a true statement, it has nothing to do with disproving my points. I've been talking story LINE not story depth. For the umpteen time, the question isn't whether the book or the movie is better, it is whether some of Jackson's plot devices actually make for a better overall Lord of the Rings story.

In additional to the brilliant points I outlined earlier, I would add that featuring the love between Aragorn and Arwen in the story itself was also an improvement. It is a great romance and it adds to the story to feature it in something beside the books' appendix.

[bropous]

BB, are you familiar with the term, "megalomaniacal"?

How about "Inferiority complex"?

You can find these and other handy-dandy terms describing self-aggrandizing psychological maladjustment in any good Psychology textbook. It might do you good to take a peek at how you are perceived.

A few more handy terms to look up while you're at it:

"Sweet-lemon rationalization"; "delusional"; "fugue"; "projection"; "denial."

[Cirdan]

Artist: Cake
Album: Fashion Nugget
Title: The Distance


Reluctantly crouched at the starting line
Engines pumping and thumping in time
The green light flashes, the flags go up
Churning and burning they yearn for the cup
They deftly maneuver and muscle for rank
Fuels burning fast on an empty tank
Reckless and wild, they pour through the turns
Their prowess is Potent and secretly stern
As they speed through the finish, the flags go down
The fans get up and they get out of town
The arena is empty except for one man
Still driving and striving as fast as he can
The sun has gone down and the moon has come up
Not long ago somebody left with the cup
But he's driving and striving an hugging the turns
And thinking of someone for who he still burns
He's going the distance
He's going for speed
She's all alone, all alone, all alone in a time of need
Because he's racing and pacing and plotting the course
He's fighting and biting and riding on his horse
He's going the distance
No trophies, no flowers, no flashbulbs, no line
He's haunted by something he cannot define
Bowel shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse
Assail him and bail him with monster truck force
In his mind he's still driving, still making the grade
She's hoping in time that her memories will fade
'Cause he's racing and pacing and plotting the course
He's fighting and biting and riding on his horse
The sun has gone down and the moon has come up
Not long ago somebody left with the cup
But he's striving and driving and hugging the turns
And thinking of someone for who he still burns
'Cause he's going the distance,
He's going for speed
She's all alone
All alone
All alone
In a time of need
Because he's racing and pacing and plotting the course
He's fighting and biting and riding on his horse
He's racing and pacing and plotting the course
He's fighting and biting and ridding on his horse
He's going the distance
He's going for speed
He's going the distance

[Black Breathalizer]

I guess the approach is to attack me and continue calling me names when you have no real response to my points. Let me try sifting through the name-calling and insults and see if we can figure out the Loyal Tolkien Opposition (also known as...er, oops, you know, the P-word ) position here:

1. Tom Bombadil is absolutely essential to the story.
2. The stern and unlikable Boromir portrayed in the book serves the story better than the Boromir portrayed by Sean Bean.
3. The story is better served by having the Orcs attack after Frodo leaves in the Breaking of the Fellowship scene.
4. Even though it is part of Tolkien's story (see ROTK appendix), the plot is better served by not bringing it into the story until the wedding.
5. Aragorn shouldn't have self-doubts (er, except for the parts of the book where he showed self-doubt I guess.)
6. We don't want a scared Frodo (see # 5)

Hmmm...considering what you're trying to defend, I guess I understand now why its easier to call me a conceited jerk.

[LuthienTinuviel]

Oh Dear Lord.
I thought this had ended.
(edit) Nevermind, Im not going to say any of it. Too many little ears around.
Why should I sit here and argue to one who won't listen?? Eariler in this thread. (Which I have read in whole, mind you) you stated that maybe us "purists" were upset that Jackson didn't crawl into our heads and project our perfect visions onto the big screen, well now im thinking maybe your just upset that we aren't crawling into YOUR head and projecting your perfect vision.

I still stick with my statement that you are no smarter than ham, BB. And here's a peice of advice, read the posts, embrace the posts, uderstand the posts of your "compitition" here. That's it,
Im leaving.

Didn't you notice I'm so headstrong even when I know I'm wrong?

That should be your motto, BB

[Cirdan]

Artist: 10000 Maniacs
Album: Blind Mans Zoo
Title: Headstrong


To your common sense firm arguments I won't listen to your voice of reason
trying to change my mind. I mind my feelings and not your words.
Didn't you notice I'm so headstrong even when I know I'm wrong? Take this to your heart
and into your head now: before you waste your time, call a truce and call a draw.
What's the use in mapping your views out in orderly form when it does nothing but confuse and anger me more? I mind my feelings and not your words.
Didn't you notice I'm so headstrong. You're talking to a deaf stone
wall.
Take this to your heart and into your head now: the old wives' tale is true,
I'll repeat it. All is fair in love and war, that's how the famous saying goes.
Open up your eyes, see me for what I am: cast in iron, I won't break and I won't bend. Take this to your heart and into your head now: the old wives' tale is true, I'll repeat it. All is fair in love and war, that's how the famous saying goes.
If I told you we were out to sea in a bottomless boat, you'd try
anything to save us, you'd try anything to keep us afloat. And if we were living in a house afire, I don't believe that you could rush out and escape it and not rescue me. Take this to your heart and into your head now: the old wives' tale is true, I'll repeat it. All is fair in love and war, that's how the famous saying goes. Listen, I think they were talking to you.


Hmmm... let me see if any lyrics from the "Clueless" soundtrack apply.