Israel, Gaza, and the Middle East Conflict

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

So just how many weapons were seized during the raid? Did they find stock piles of guns/missiles/bomb making material? Or just food and water?

Worse: they found slingshots.

[inked]

Which, no doubt, they intended to use just as peacefully as their metal pipes, baseball bats, and the whole ocean on the video. Yep. Peaceful folks, everone and exhibiting no intention to harm by any means at their disposal any gnats. Jews, however, ...

Gwai, you need to apply your sanity in regard to PIE to this situation and with equal dispassion.

[inked]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle7142862.ece


"Just as the intransigence of the blockade around Gaza has allowed the vile regime of Hamas to escape the scrutiny that it deserves, so has Israel’s blundering savagery on the high seas allowed those on board the flotilla to appear unimpeachable. This is inaccurate and also dangerous."


Good questions on the actions of the "peace activists" and "humanitarians" and Turkish government ... and Israel. Notably draws attention on whom is aiding whom and their willingness to sacrifice others.

See here, also for the reactions of others: http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16161

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Worse: they found slingshots.

Their attempt at showing off a captured arsenal of weapons was risible. They had spanners and wrenches in there!

Bit of a microcosm of the whole thing really: blokes in helicopters and body armour with uzis versus blokes in sandals with spanners.

[inked]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians

[inked]

MEMRI reports on who is who in the flotilla and what they are about...

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4265.htm



"Arab Media Reports on Flotilla Participants: Writing Wills, Preparing for Martyrdom, Determined to Reach Gaza or Die


Flotilla Participants

Following is information from the Arab media about some of the flotilla participants. It should be noted that many of these were from the Muslim Brotherhood across the Muslim world.

(For more on this subject, see also MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 2986, "MEMRI TV Clips on the Gaza Flotilla: Activists On Board Chant Songs of Martyrdom at Departure," http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4249.htm .)"

[brownjenkins]

You'd think that Israel would learn that blockades don't work after the many years we did it against Iraq. The incident itself is not surprising, but the sheer stupidity on the part of Israel is. Every time they take a step forward, they react by taking three steps back.

I only wish we could pull out of the middle east entirely and let them live by their own karma.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

The world doesn't give a rat's arse about Gaza.

Not entirely true, I recall the EU putting a lot of money in helping rebuild Gaza, in between the Israelis wrecking the place again. But for any political action, they're indeed pretty much on their own.

Originally Posted by inked

Fact: Humanitarian relief is delivered to Gaza from Israel on a daily basis. During the first three months of this year, 94,500 tons of supplies were transferred to Gaza from Israel, including 48,000 tons of food products; 40,000 tons of wheat; 2,760 tons of rice; 1,987 tons of clothes and footwear; and 553 tons of milk powder and baby food for the strip’s 1.5 million inhabitants. Representatives of international aid groups and the United Nations move freely to and from the Gaza

I question this validity of this 'fact'. Especially since a number of humanitarian organisations have often complained about Israel denying them access to the strip, letting food through too slowly to alleviate hunger or preventing other aid materials such as building materials to pass. And a good deal of journalists also have complained about not being allowed in.

[inked]

Earniel, Egypt has a wall, a border, and guards, and has, very occasionally, opened it to this purpose. Where are the flotillas against Egypt for Gaza?

I am presenting as many sources as possible on the issue apart from the standard cavilling that goes on here. I really do not believe in a giant conspiracy that presents only one side of the story.

As to the assertions in the materials, they are those of the authors. I do not verify them or stand for them. I'm in the middle of the continental USA, not on the scene.

BJ, the karma you suggest would be a non-existent Israel, as the avowed intention of their enemies and frenemies is to exterminate them and render Israel non-existent. Have you not read what the goals are of entire states int he middle east, especially those of the "Palestinian state"?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by inked

Earniel, Egypt has a wall, a border, and guards, and has, very occasionally, opened it to this purpose. Where are the flotillas against Egypt for Gaza?

I take it that depends on whether and to what level Egypt has walled off Gaza, has recently been bombing Palestina with forbidden ammunition, or is not living up to agreements by letting and encouraging settlers to build towns on land that isn't theirs. That sort of thing, maybe?

I am presenting as many sources as possible on the issue apart from the standard cavilling that goes on here. I really do not believe in a giant conspiracy that presents only one side of the story.

I appreciate the sentiment for presenting more, different views-points in conflicts. However, paradoxally perhaps, your arguments strike me as somewhat one-sided.

[inked]

Earniel, it does help, doesn't it, that I am, like, totally correct?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I appreciate the sentiment for presenting more, different views-points in conflicts. However, paradoxally perhaps, your arguments strike me as somewhat one-sided.

Well spotted! Unfortunately, so is everyone else's argument.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by inked

Earniel, it does help, doesn't it, that I am, like, totally correct?

No. And no. But nice try, though.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

BJ, the karma you suggest would be a non-existent Israel, as the avowed intention of their enemies and frenemies is to exterminate them and render Israel non-existent. Have you not read what the goals are of entire states int he middle east, especially those of the "Palestinian state"?

Not a non-existant Israel, just a more realistic one.

The "goals" of any one state or another are meaningless, and paying heed to them even more so. Israel has claimed it's spot in the Middle East, and it won't be losing it to the Arabic population any more than we will be losing US territory to the American Indian population in the near or distant future.

We could cut off all ties, and funds, to Israel tomorrow and they'd be just fine. They have closer economic ties to Turkey than they do to us, and those ties go both ways.

The problem is that they are still stuck behind the big brother syndrome that is US support. They are pretty tough on their own, but when you add US backing to the picture, they just become punks. It would be good for the own future of their society to cut the cord at this point.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Not a non-existant Israel, just a more realistic one.

To be honest, I don't believe in the State of Israel. It's a strange combination of post-war guilt and biblical literalism, which was introduced to the world stage at the expense of the Palestinians ("the modern Canaanites," as some Zionists would have you believe). I'm sure at this point, a "Palestinian state" is unrealistic, but some serious accommodations have to be made, and rather more than Israel seems to be willing to offer.

[inked]

BJ, I'll take that as "No, I haven't read what their enemies and frenemies have said." The attempt at dislocation was not one of your best, nor was it successful. Try again, and do not "tilt" the machine.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

BJ, I'll take that as "No, I haven't read what their enemies and frenemies have said." The attempt at dislocation was not one of your best, nor was it successful. Try again, and do not "tilt" the machine.

You're just paying too much attention to what has been "said" and not enough to what has been done. But you always have preferred literature over reality.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Pfft, reality . . . no such thing. All of it is our own mental constructions of the world around us.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Pfft, reality . . . no such thing. All of it is our own mental constructions of the world around us.

Damn right!

But, when in Rome...

[inked]

Speaking of what has been done, BJ, remind me how many thousands of rockets have been fired into Israel by the folks they are blockading because of those thousands of rockets.