Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Hemel]

This morning we have a report over here that arrests are expected soon of soldiers who provided the hoax pictures to The Mirror newspaper. So ... perhaps these particular pictures really were hoaxes? (It's maybe taking a conspiracy theory too far to suggest that two or three soldiers were granted a big payoff to hoax The Mirror? )

But for all of that - why? Are they just non-thinking people, who played a sort of April Fool's joke that had bigger consequences than they thought? Did they not consider they'd be endangering people over in Iraq? And why didn't The Mirror assure itself of their provenance before publishing ... might it have been commercial pressures to hit the streets first, because of falling circulation?

I don't know. But it seems to me there just end up being more questions. Including - hey, maybe the pictures were of some strange unoffical initiation ceremony into the services ... ?

For Rumsfeld - yes, we have the same report over here, that he authorised physical coercion and sexual humiliation. I understand also that this has been rigorously denied. But I wonder - because this morning too we have a report that a detainee at Guantanamo was subject to physical abuse - pepper thrown in his face and a severe beating - and that there are videos of abuses that happened at Guantanamo. If this is so, then just maybe some sort of general policy could be the case? Or is it that prisons, as per Zimbardo, just breed this kind of thing?

I note too that in a report yesterday there was a suggestion that there has been a rethink on treatment of detainees in Iraq, with such things as sleep and sensory deprivation now not permitted ... even though, it would seem, defence lawyers previously had said this sort of thing was okay. Which certainly does suggest to me, if this report is true, that there was some sort of policy. In fact, I think, bearing in mind that we over here have places where certain techniques are taught and soliders are taught how to resist them, it's very likely.

btw, there's also a report that Tony Blair won't stand down until Iraqi elections, so at least till next January. His view, apparently, is that he got us into this mess and he has to see it through. Just suddenly, of all things, if this really is his sentiment, I admire him for it. Though I'd rather we hadn't got into this mess in the first place!

[Artanis]

Ruinel, I read your apology thread and I just wanted to say thanks. I too feel ashamed about this. Torture is inhuman and unacceptable regardless of where it happens or who is carrying it out.

SGH is right in one thing: The WTC attack, the beheading of Nick Berg, or the Madrid bombs do not upset me as much as the torture pics from Iraq. Why is it so? It is NOT because I consider the sufferings of American or Spanish victims less serious or important than the sufferings of Iraqi victims. It is NOT because I consider any of these actions to be more acceptable than the others. The great distress, the shame, comes because Lynndie England and her fellows in Iraq are supposed to represent moral values that I too would defend! When al-Qaeda is carrying out their terrorist attacks they only do what the world expects them to do. We are not shocked or even surprised. We call them fundamentalists and extremists. But what then when the victims are on their side, and we are the ones to terrorise them? Wasn't the torture and the degrading treatment of the Iraqis one of the things the war was supposed to bring an end to?

[Hemel]

Ah, I've now learnt a little more about The Mirror story, so a couple of my questions have been answered

But it does seem to me that Tony Blair is on the run. We'll see what happens, but I can't help thinking that unless he can manage something really big his days in office are getting counted.

[Spock]

It's very doubtful that higher ups would have condoned much less known about these things. One, their careers are worth much more than it would have been worth to be involved with this and two, lower ranks tend to enjoy doing things to get around the system. IME.

[Ultimatejoe]

So what experience do you have in the military chain of command?

If you think that politicians/leaders are too concerned with their career standing to engage in morally dubious behaviour, then how do you explain Oliver North? Howabout the School of the Americas? The CIA has admitted that it releases people to countries that use torture to extract information, and nobody in that organization has been reprimanded by government.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Here is an excerpt from an interview with Colin Powell on NBC's Meet the Press.

Powell said he was disappointed the Arab world had not expressed greater outrage over the beheading of American civilian Nick Berg, whose assailants have not been found.

He said there was "no excuse for any silence on the part of Arab leaders. I would like to have seen much higher outrage."

While he stressed that he did not believe the behavior of U.S. soldiers toward Iraqi prisoners was "in any way" acceptable, Powell said there could be "no comparison" between the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison and the killing of Berg.

This is what I have been trying to say.

[Spock]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
So what experience do you have in the military chain of command?

QUOTE] Enough to use IME as a footnote.

If you think that politicians/leaders are too concerned with their career standing to engage in morally dubious behaviour, then how do you explain Oliver North? Howabout the School of the Americas? The CIA has admitted that it releases people to countries that use torture to extract information, and nobody in that organization has been reprimanded by government. [/Col. North was a fall guy. (that's period!). School of the Americas and the rest of your post is fairly accurate. IMO, so what. Remember I'm not trying to persuade you but I am entitled to MO.

SGH-yes, right on target once more.

[Ultimatejoe]

So what? Isn't that a bit contrite? If politicians and military leaders are willing to engage in morally undesireable behaviour, doesn't that completely discredit your argument that:

It's very doubtful that higher ups would have condoned much less known about these things.

I have provided three cases (Contra-arms, School of the Americas, Rendering) where government/military leaders have engaged in practices that would shock and horrify people if they were public knowledge; all three are understood and condoned by "higher-ups." I think it makes a compelling argument that these sorts of people do exactly what you deny of them.

[Horyok]

Hmm... reminds me of things I've heard on other boards!

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Funny how I seem to have missed all this condemnation. As for genocide, at that point when I said 'bomb them' I was angry and if you read the back posts you will see that. They seem to be pretty good at killing themselves off anyway.

I find all of these atrocities to be disgusting and horrible, my point is, is that it is too bad that everyone doesn't. The US is hated by a lot of the world, so the world hardly grieves over deaths of Americans. I hear on and on and on about the abuse of these detainees by Americans, and will continue to hear it for months and probably years, while the Berg murder and the murders of the 4 contractors is hardly mentioned and will eventually fall silent, but, that's okay.

No, not funny at all, as it is getting exactly zero coverage in the American press.

"Egypt condemns Iraq torture, beheading: Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmad Mahir on 13 May condemned pictures showing Iraqi prisoners being abused and the decapitation of a US civilian, the Egyptian news agency MENA reported. He described the torture and abuse of Iraqi prisoners as a "despicable crime" and the beheading of US civilian Nick Berg as a "heinous crime" that went against human principles. (MENA news agency, 1352 gmt 13 May 04)"

"Nothing justifies killing" - Jordanian paper on beheading: An editorial in Jordan Times web site on 13 May deplored the beheading of US captive Nick Berg by Muslim extremists. It said Berg's killing, which was ostensibly committed in retaliation for the abuse and torture of Iraqi prisoners by US soldiers in Abu-Ghurayb prison, could not avenge their mistreatment. "Taking the life of a man who obviously had nothing to do with the prison conditions in Iraq only trivialises the Iraqis' ordeal and plasters the repulsive face of the occupation with a mask of acceptance of such gross violence. It is also likely to deflect anger from those responsible for the inhumane treatment of detainees, weakening the case for bringing them to justice," it said. "Perpetrators of crime have to be brought to justice. Whoever and wherever they are. International conventions and the rule of law must be observed. Humanity cannot be held ransom to barbarity and nothing justifies killing," it said. (Jordan Times web site, 13 May 04) "
.......
Muslim Authorities Condemn Berg Killing

Muslim authorities at al-Azhar Seminary, the preeminent center of learning for Sunni Islam, vehemently condemned the brutal murder of Nick Berg by terrorists in Iraq, according to Sobhy Mujahid.

' "Islam respects the human being, dead or alive, and cutting off the American's head was an act of mutilation forbidden by Islam," [said] Ibrahim Al-Fayoumi, a member of Al-Azhar's Islamic Research Academy . . . '

Sobhi adds, ' Mahmoud Emara, another member of the Academy [said] "The mutilation even of enemies is rejected by Islam. A mistake could not justify another . . . " The scholar cited the respect Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had paid to bodies in the battle of Badr when he ordered the burial of the dead irrespective of their religion. The Prophet urged his Companions on the day of Badr to be kind to their captives and treat them with clemency. '

These scholars are major voices of the Muslim mainstream. They should be listened to on such matters.

Even the much more radical Lebanese Shiite Hizbullah (Hezbollah), according to the Sydney Morning Herald, ' harshly criticised the beheading and questioned the timing of a "horrible" act which drove the torture of Iraqi prisoners by US-led forces from the headlines. "Hezbollah denounces this horrible act which does an immense wrong to Islam and Muslims by a group which falsely pretends to follow the precepts of the religion of pardon and essential human values," the party said in a statement. ' (Hizbullah, as Shiites, has nothing but contempt for the Sunni radical Zarqawi).

It adds, 'Ezzedine Salim, this month's chief of the Iraq Governing Council, insisted that "decapitations and mutilations are unacceptable and have nothing to do with Islam". '

Even the conservative and fundamentalist religious leaders in Iraq expressed the same sentiments.

Samir Haddad quotes Muthanna al-Dhari, secretary general of the Board of Muslim Clergy (a hardline Sunni organization that in the past has had members who stockpiled arms in mosques; it was a major mediating force at Fallujah). Al-Dhari ' strongly denounced the killing, saying it runs counter to the teachings of Islam and "does disservice to our religion and our cause." The Sunni scholar stressed this is a condemned operation whether carried out by Iraqis or non-Iraqis and whether the slain was a civilian or a military personnel. "Even if he was a military personnel he should be treated as a prisoner who, according to Shari'ah, must not be killed," he told IslamOnline.net. Deputy Head of the Islamic Party Iyaad Samarrai said the abhorrent treatment of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers should never give an excuse for treating U.S. prisoners the same way. "This is absolutely wrong," he told IOL, asserting that "Islam does prohibit the killing or the maltreatment of prisoners." Samarrai said such acts harm the interest of the Iraqi people and their cause to end the U.S.-led occupation.

We'll be hearing for years from the talking heads on US cable news about how the Muslim world failed to condemn what was done to Berg. It would be as though a set of high-ranking cardinals in the Vatican condemned something unreservedly and then people kept saying the Church remained silent.

http://www.juancole.com/

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
Howabout the School of the Americas? The CIA has admitted that it releases people to countries that use torture to extract information, and nobody in that organization has been reprimanded by government.

It isn't illegal or anything for us to turn people over to other countries. Although I thought we only allowed such countries to capture the people - I don't really see the problem of handing people over. It is funny how people are outraged that we hand people over to such countries as Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - but they aren't expressing any outraged toward those countries concerning their tactics.

You don't like us playing by the rules - then change the rules. Make those countries give up toture and so forth as a way of interigation.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
No, not funny at all, as it is getting exactly zero coverage in the American press.


http://www.juancole.com/

Yeah - probably in between them saying "well america deserved it anyway" right - just like they did with ****ing 9/11.

I was away all week - so I can't comment if they had reported Arab leaders making statements of outrage. I do know that usually when they do - they footnote it with "but america deserved it"

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hemel
TI note too that in a report yesterday there was a suggestion that there has been a rethink on treatment of detainees in Iraq, with such things as sleep and sensory deprivation now not permitted ... even though, it would seem, defence lawyers previously had said this sort of thing was okay. Which certainly does suggest to me, if this report is true, that there was some sort of policy. In fact, I think, bearing in mind that we over here have places where certain techniques are taught and soliders are taught how to resist them, it's very likely.

Sleep deprivation. sensory deprivation, loud music, cold, hot air - have all been used as a way to weaken people. It isn't torture. The bags over captors heads wasn't even torture. I see no reason to stop certain actions - the ones that are CLEARLY abuse - such as the nudity and sex acts and the threat of electricution if a person stops standing - those should be the ones eliminated.

Not everything performed was abuse and the majority of stuff wasn't torture.

[Ultimatejoe]

In all honesty, I don't know how to discuss things with you JD. You know why? Because every time someone says something you disagree with, instead of actually thinking about what they've said and adressing THAT issue, you simply change the subject.

We are not talking about other countries and their abuse of prisoners. For the reference, I do criticize other countries when they violate human rights. I have donated money to Amnesty International as well. I do what I can whenever the situation warrants. So you can stow the attitude.

It isn't illegal or anything for us to turn people over to other countries.

Are you sure about that? The last time I checked the United States had signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; which does specifically say:

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

By turning people over to other organizations SO THEY CAN BE TORTURED I'd say that the U.S. government is subjecting them to torture.

It is funny how people are outraged that we hand people over to such countries as Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - but they aren't expressing any outraged toward those countries concerning their tactics.

You know, just because you don't try to make the world a better place doesn't mean that the rest of us aren't. Have you ever heard of Human Rights Watch? Amnesty International? UNICEF? There are hundreds of organizations and governments that work very hard to end these practices. At the same time there are all sorts of media sources that publicly denounce the practices of these countries. Of course they're predominantly left-wing so you've lucked into a situation where you can criticize people for inaction, and at the same time criticize those who are acting.

Yeha - probably in between them saying "well america deserved it anyway" right - just like they did with ****ing 9/11.

So what would it take for you to believe that Muslims and Arabs are condemning these actions? It's not like their religious and political leaders are denouncing the beheading. Oh wait, they are. And it's not like the general public is critical... Oh wait, it is. [FLAME DELETED]

Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
AFAIK, everyone of those events that you have mentioned was widely condemned all over the world- hell, even Hamas and Hizbullah have condemned the killing of Berg

And yet, even though the murder of Berg by a few Muslims was widely condemned in Iraq and other parts of the Middle East, your response was to call for genocide of the entire population.

How did you fell about the picture of the Iraqi prisoner beaten to death by American interrogators? There's plenty of (OH WELL) attitude being shown by some on the American right-wing.

Oh yeah - they condemned the beheading of Berg AFTER they kiled that pregnant woman in Gaza along with her 4 young girls.

By the way - it's not an "oh well attitude" it's just a matter of the damn "blame america - ignore everything else in the world that is going on". You guys go on a feeding frenzy every time their is a negative thing about the US. It's like sharks circling and the threads go up immediatedly. YOU don't start threads about the under handed deals between the UN and Iraq, there is no thread about Berg, there is no thread about the Jewish woman and 4 children who were gunned down. But oh - if the US does anything - here comes the threads.

This fact shows many people's opinions toward America far more than any words. Many people can say "oh we aren't anti-american" but the only thing they ever want to bring up is stuff america does wrong - nothing in the rest of the world.

[Ultimatejoe]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Many people can say "oh we aren't anti-american" but the only thing they ever want to bring up is stuff america does wrong - nothing in the rest of the world.

I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about American soldiers... I must have been mistaken. If you're going to get riled up when people talk to Americans, about AMERICA, on a board populated mostly BY AMERICANS, then you're going to have a tough time with the internet. I mean, it seems to me that this would be a good place to talk about issues pertaining to America. If I spoke Arabic I would probably participate in Arabic discussion forums. I don't. If my Hebrew was better you can bet I would be talking to Israeli's about what they're doing. It isn't. Are you really so claireaudient that you know what people here are saying then they're not posting on these forums?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
In all honesty, I don't know how to discuss things with you JD. You know why? Because every time someone says something you disagree with, instead of actually thinking about what they've said and adressing THAT issue, you simply change the subject.

We are not talking about other countries and their abuse of prisoners. For the reference, I do criticize other countries when they violate human rights. I have donated money to Amnesty International as well. I do what I can whenever the situation warrants.

I wasn't changing thre subject. The fact is there is torture going on. It's funny how people can discuss the actions of other countries to support their view AGAINST America - but I am criticized for bring up the actions of OTHER countries in DEFENSE of America.

So you can stow the attitude.

I'll do whatever the hell I please - without asking YOUR permission of what I will post or not post. If you don't like it - don't read it.

Are you sure about that? The last time I checked the United States had signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; which does specifically say:

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

By turning people over to other organizations SO THEY CAN BE TORTURED I'd say that the U.S. government is subjecting them to torture.

No - because we aren't doing the torture.

You know, just because you don't try to make the world a better place doesn't mean that the rest of us aren't. Have you ever heard of Human Rights Watch? Amnesty International? UNICEF? There are hundreds of organizations and governments that work very hard to end these practices.

yeah - I have - most of the times they just put out little notices out about which countries are the worst, nothign ever gets don't - most people just use them to quote how they report the conditions of our jails and so forth in the US. it not like they really do too much in the countries that ACTUALLY torture people. What about the stoning of the backpackers in Afganistan last week?

At the same time there are all sorts of media sources that publicly denounce the practices of these countries. Of course they're predominantly left-wing so you've lucked into a situation where you can criticize people for inaction, and at the same time criticize those who are acting.

They're not actually acting - they just write reports and stuff. Did they ACTIVELY doing anything about Bosnia? Have they done anything about China? What about North Korea? Did they do anythign about Hussein? No - they didn't - they report it though. So just because they say things - does not mean they are acting.

So what would it take for you to believe that Muslims and Arabs are condemning these actions? It's not like their religious and political leaders are denouncing the beheading. Oh wait, they are.

You sure about that? You are in the Madrasas? You are speaking to clerics without the media there and the world watching them? You are truly blind if you don't think they put on shows for the world - but in their religious talks in the Mosques they aren't saying completely different things a lot of them.

And it's not like the general public is critical... Oh wait, it is. [FLAME DELETED]

I'm not racist. If you knew me you would know I'm not. But you can not deny that there were MANY MANY palestinians and arabs in the streets CHEERING when 9/11 happened. That they routinely call on the death of infidels and jews in their mosques. This is from Time magazine - not a right winged paper or anything. We have been working to get Saudi Arabia and other countries to change their school text books that compare jews to dogs that must be killed. But hey - I'm the racist one - I know. I'm just pointing out the facts of the situtation - you obviously don't want to go further than what they say. Talk is cheap - action is what counts. I don't see much action in the middle east, except from Pakistan - just a bunch of meaningless talk.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about American soldiers... I must have been mistaken. If you're going to get riled up when people talk to Americans, about AMERICA, on a board populated mostly BY AMERICANS, then you're going to have a tough time with the internet. I mean, it seems to me that this would be a good place to talk about issues pertaining to America. If I spoke Arabic I would probably participate in Arabic discussion forums. I don't. If my Hebrew was better you can bet I would be talking to Israeli's about what they're doing. It isn't. Are you really so claireaudient that you know what people here are saying then they're not posting on these forums?

Oh - so siince this is an American board the only things that can be talked about are things concerning America huh? Oh thanks for clearing that up.

Oh and believe me - I'm not going to have a tough time with the internet - I'm veryu knowledgeable about the internet - I'm just tired of thread after thread condemning america - while other issues just get whitewashed here. People who stuck up for the UN and repeatedly stick up for the UN - are silent about about the UN deals. What is funny is the UN is investigating itself. When the US does the same thing - investigates itself - there are comments from various people who say "well it'll just be covered up and nothing will happen" - but the UN doesn't get the same treatment from the people who support it. It's all hypocritical - it has nothing to do with this being an American board - it has to do with people having just high disdain and contempt for the US that they only want to discuss the things the US does wrong.

That is racist.

[Sister Golden Hair]

ADMINISTRATIVE WARNING-Please people, watch the flaming. This thread is a heated one, but let's try to keep discussion civil. I remind you all of the new rules that are stuck to the top of this forum. Follow them.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I have a question. What do all of you suggest to be merciful forms of interrogation?

Sounds like we should just put prisoners in a big overstuffed comfy chair and feed them tea and crumpets until they puke, then they'll tell us what we want to know, won't they?