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#281 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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Ah, you beat me to it, Arathorn, I was going to bring up elephants too.
![]() Having a foster elephant has provided me with a increased interest in elephants. They guard dead elephants for hours even for days and often the whole herd comes to sort of say goodbye. They can recognize bones and skulls of their relatives and they take great pains to examine them carefully. Most of the time they scatter the bones. So I think they know about dead and think about it. What they think about is off course impossible to know. Incidently they also have bigger brain. ![]()
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#282 | |
Bard of Mangled Songs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila
Posts: 2,679
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Quote:
This adds proof to the saying "An elephant never forgets".
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Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert Accio, Ash Nazg! Elennuru s?*la lúmenn' omentielvo (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures... |
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#283 | |
The Rogue Elf
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,722
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#284 | |
The Rogue Elf
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,722
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Quote:
Being that you're Catholic, do you think any other animals besides us have souls? Due to their actions; do elephants have souls? Can they enter Heaven or Hell? Basically, as a religious person, how can you really tell what has a soul and what doesn't? Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 08-02-2002 at 06:34 AM. |
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#285 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Quote:
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 08-02-2002 at 06:46 AM. |
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#286 | |
Bard of Mangled Songs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila
Posts: 2,679
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With regards to animals, some people will tell you yes, some people will tell you no. My answer is a big I DON'T KNOW. ![]() There are more than 70 million catholics in my country and a few more in the new nation called East Timor in Southeast Asia. That's a lot of different individuals with different views about their religion. You have zealots as well as liberals as well as slobs, murderers, adulterers, people you can get along and be friends with, people you'd not mind going to heaven or hell or wherever the moment you see em... ![]() ![]() BTW, I'm only 60% pure according to a test in another thread. ![]()
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Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert Accio, Ash Nazg! Elennuru s?*la lúmenn' omentielvo (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures... Last edited by Arathorn : 08-02-2002 at 07:04 AM. |
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#287 | |
The Rogue Elf
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,722
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#288 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Well, I don't think even religion is absolute. It has some absolutist ideals I guess, but eh, completely absolute?
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#289 |
The Rogue Elf
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,722
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Ahhhhh . . . not again!
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#290 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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Negative.
Elephants are fairly well documented to have death rites now. There is a good chance they have a concept of death. Simians also, especially the chimps, likely have a concept of personal death. No evidence is in for cetaceans at this point. The reason I bring this up is that many people seem to think that religions are based simply on a fear of death. While it might be interesting to speculate on bonabo spirituality and culture, I don't really see much potential there. As for an absoute, there are only two absolutes that we can be certain of (using the court derived version of certitude, which actually means 90% certain) and that is zero and infinity. Zero is a numerical singularity, and anyone interested in metaphysical concepts should do some reading on it. ( A simple text with interesting implications ) Infinity is somewhat the oposite idea of zero. ( Another twisty book ) Anything in between these two concepts is relative. That goes for ethics, morality, and even universal laws, such as gravity and electromagnetic phenomena. (Which is why alpha is such an interesting phenomenon, since it appears to be an actual absolute that has been caclulated). So all this blather about religion being an absolute seems odd to me. All religions have transformation myths. If there's a transformation myth built into the structure, how can you call it absolute? ![]()
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#291 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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"'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."- Mao Tse Tung The reason we are special is because we have the power to directly impact almost every sphere of influence on the planet in a way no other life form has ever done before. Coupled with our ability of (limited) foresight, this is a very frightening power. If we were insane enough, I have little doubt we could find a way to destroy all other species on the planet above the microscopic level. Maybe the microscopic also, given some advances in nanotechnology. "If the radiance of a thousand suns Were to burst at once into the sky That would be like the splendor of the Mighty one ... I am become Death, The shatterer of Worlds." - Bhagavad-Gita Does that make us special? Well, isn't that a relative perspective?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#292 | |
Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,214
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#293 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
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If you what to know how much we do know about the brain try subjects like
behavioral genetics, bio-psychology, socio-biololgy, neuro science,
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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#294 | ||||||
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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Rogue elf, are you a humunculus trying to come out of the closet or something? Quote:
On the other hand... He asks "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?" "Am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" God wishes that humans should be made right, whatever the cost to us, whatever the cost to himself. It is only when humans refuse to be made right that they fall under judgement. Quote:
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But even then we are not exempt from making our own effort. We are told "As much as it lies with you, live at peace with everyone else" "love they neighbor as theyself' Quote:
WE do speak of 'the lion laying down with the lamb" to illustrate the lack of conflict in heaven, so you could drw your own conclusions from that... Quote:
Why do we think humans are special? Because we are humans, and therefore pay the most attention to ourselves.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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#295 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wayfarer
[B] Does anyone else find this amusing? Or is it just me? Oh yes. Personally I prefer Absolut directly from the freezer. ![]()
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 08-03-2002 at 09:33 AM. |
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#296 | ||
The Original Corruptor
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,881
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Hopefully he realizes that if God directly interferes in the "life-status" of a human being, i.e. kills or causes death, "free will" is negated. It is negated in that any particular human that suffers God's wrath is denied the option of continuing his/her physical existence. It is unclear why, exactly, God chooses to exercise his wrath on some people, and not others. For instance, consider those who live their lives without belief in God, but who are not smitten prematurely. Indeed, their existence is supposed to continue in hell once their physical existence ceases, but what about those who are mentioned in the bible that suffer the consequences of their free will derived actions? Eternity in hell. That's a long time. To add a couple years onto this punishment is, to me at least, foolish. And that is what God does, when his temper is lost and his fury unleashed. The idea of punishment on earth would surely be insignificant to an unimaginable degree, when compared to the spiritual punishment. Yet, God proceeded with this earthly punishment... Wayfarer says that God will not let evil go unpunished. What does he mean by this "punishment"? Plagues (i.e. Ex 8:2...)? Genocide (i.e. 1 Sam 15:2-3...)? Or eternal torment (i.e. Rev 20:10...)? Quote:
Of course, we are (oddly) presupposing that God's judgement is fair. How fair is it to punish the children of "sinners"? One would think that punishment be deserved by the recipient, but that is hardly the case when it comes to the migty Yahweh. Consider verses such as Ex 20:5 and Dt 5:9. That is justice? And how about those that suffered the wrath of the jealous Hebrew war god upon birth? Have another look at 1 Sam 15:3. Infants are murdered, because, according to Wayfarer, they "refused to be made right". Surely he can't think this is the case? Whatever explanation he comes up with should make for entertaining reading. |
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#297 | ||||
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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And I was worried I was going to have trouble catching up on this thread... ]: )
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God's wrath is not the same as human anger. It is a continuing responce to a state of affairs in it's object. we might become angry, and later 'cool down'. God's wrath endures until the state of affairs it is agains has been fixed. Likewise, we might continue to be angry even if hte other trys to make amends. God immediatelyt put's it behind him, and makes things right. God has chosen to give us free will, even though part of that involves the ability to choose evil. That is to say, humanity is given a choice between good and bad. Now, God vehemently wants us to have what is best for us. That is to say, he desires our good (because he loves us). In fact, he wishes to make each of us perfect, he wants us to be in right relationship with hin and each other. And there is only one force in the universe with the ability to resist his making you good - You. God's wrath is the reaction of his perfect goodness to our imperfections. Make no mistake-he wants you to be made right whatever the cost to himself or to you. But anyone who, through the abuse of free will, refuse to be made right is under his wrath. Quote:
In any case, if I carry your argument to it's logical conclusion, then humans should not die except when they chose. Which is nonsense. Quote:
First, as to premature deaths: Oh yeah. I can just see God sitting up in heaven, kicked back in his big La-Z-Boy, and saying "What? Wayfarer just wend and died on me! I can't believe it! I create him, I uphold him by my power, and the ungrateful scum goes and DIES on me! What God does is allow us to live so that A. we might come to know him and be made right and B. That we may help others do the same. He wants us to A. during the time we are given, but I suppose that when one emphatically refuses he might cut their life short (although that's a poor way of saying it) Quote:
I said before that God wanted to fix everything that's wrong with us. Well, we all know that pain is our indicator that something is wrong, don't we? God sends suffering, not as a prelude of hell, but in order to tell us that something's wrong, that we may turn to him and avoid hell.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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#298 | ||||||||
The Original Corruptor
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,881
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Here is a small list of the God's "reactions", i.e. those murdered indirectly (divine orders) or directly: Quote:
Another problem is evident when Wayfarer says that God's wrath, or "reaction" is intended to make us perfect, yet that we are not perfect, and because of this, God's wrath is necessary. But, what good comes from God's wrath? People can not be "made perfect" by ordering their death - this is absurd. Unless, of course, lifelessness is equated with perfection, although I doubt that anyone here is willing to advocate this position. Other issues include the question, "why is it that some non-Christians escape the wrath of God?" Surely God feels the same way about someone who did not believe in his existence 3000 years ago, as someone who does the same today? Yet, atheists, and other non-christians abound on this planet. Millions of these people have lived their lives to their "natural" ends, i.e. death brought about in any way other than direct or indirect destruction. Indeed, if one had to look at the way the lives of Christian's ended, in comparison with that of non-christians, one would find no difference (outside the bible). What is the reason for this inconsistency? Perhaps Wayfarer can enlighten us. Yes, there must be an answer for why these non-Christians are left to live there lives without divine intervention. Why has God decided that for all of these people, he will not "react" on them? Wayfarer asserts that "God's wrath endures until the state of affairs it is agains has been fixed." This does not hold up in the light of the fact that there is a state of affairs currently in which not all humans believe in his existence. This was the state of affairs present in biblical times, and is still present. Yet God's wrath is no longer unleashed. Quote:
Can one exercise a "choice between good and bad", as Wayfarer puts it, if one is a new-born or unborn baby? Ofcourse not. Yet Wayfarer holds that God reacts to "our imperfections", and that to choose evil, or bad, over good, is imperfection, and "abuse" of our free will. This is untrue when it comes to those who are too young to exercise or "abuse" their free will. But God will smite them nevertheless, because of who they were born to, and what those people did. Quote:
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Furthermore, perhaps Wayfarer might divulge the reasons behind the fact that some Christians suffer more than non-Christians. Last edited by Andúril : 08-06-2002 at 10:38 AM. |
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#299 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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Guys.
What in the F__K does this have to do with absolutism? Or relativism? Did someone slip up somewhere and state an absolute standard of good or evil, and now there's this huge definition going on? An absolute standard doesn't need to be good or evil. It just needs to be infinite, and applicable in all situations.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#300 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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BH, you should know by know that all threads degenerate into theological debates. Even plastic surgery ones apparently.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
I'm writing an essay on relativism in LOTR | IronParrot | Lord of the Rings Books | 152 | 02-11-2005 05:38 PM |