12-11-2004, 01:55 AM | #281 | ||||
Elf Lord
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I think both Saruman and Morgoth when given their opportunities for final turning from self refused to do so wilfully or had become so self-fixated that they were incapable of choosing otherwise. They had confined their existence to self until implosion. They were irredeemable because they chose to be not redeemed when redemption was proffered. Yes. It is possible in Middle Earth as Morgoth, Saruman, Wormtongue, and Gollum all demonstrate for us. True repentance and amendment of life is shown in varying modes in Merry and Pippin and Bilbo and Frodo and Sam. We see the same in Boromir. Quote:
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All however had in their degree the choice of self or the Other. To refuse the Divine Will out of self-will ultimately leads to self-destruction.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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12-11-2004, 03:51 AM | #282 | |||||
avocatus diaboli
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Okay. IMHO, if "pure evil" does not exist, this means that no matter how bad you get, you never reach a theoretical spot where you are completely evil and thus could not get more so. *sigh* A math example comes to mind. I don't know how much of this everyone knows... So, take the equation xy=36. If you graph this, you will see that it is impossible to reach 0, because 0 x anything=0, thus could never equal 36. However, you can continuously get smaller and smaller without touching 0, 360 x .1 = 36. So on one side the graph goes down towards 0 without ever touching it, and on the other it goes up into infinity... It's almost 3am, so I can't be sure, but I think I might have at least mathematically proved that your "no true evil"/"perfect good" might be true...! Anyway, back on topic. If you can never reach 0, "perfect evil", then it seems to me that you can always get worse... Quote:
I agree with you on the last, btw. Amazing, isn't it?
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12-11-2004, 11:54 AM | #283 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I certainly agree that no evil entiety that has not imploded into Zero is irredeemable. Indeed, that would be blasphemy. Christ taught that He came to redeem all men, and by extension we can say Elves and Maiar, even Melko. However, the self-centeredness that is at the core of evil will usually prevent this, except by an exceptional act of will, expressed very well by C.S. Lewis in The Great Divorce. Inked I'm sure will recall the image of the soul with the small demon on his shoulder whispering to him that the soul would be lost without him, but finally, the soul rejects it by ripping it away from his shoulder and throwing it onto the ground. It immediately turns into a magnificent stallion that the soul gladfully mounts and rides away into the hills. The greater the sin, the harder the repentence but the greater the glory thereby.
On another note, I am struck always by the similarities between the ends of Saruman and Sauron. Both, after their mortal destruction are seen as phantoms, the one of Saruman quoted above and the "impenetrable shadow crowned with lightning" that menaces the Captains of the West with a huge hand (the Black Hand?) and then is dispersed by a great west wind. Note the directions of both winds. Saruman wavers, Sauron threratens. Does that not sum them up neatly?
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
12-11-2004, 12:58 PM | #284 |
Elf Lord
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Attalus, an excellent point. For those with "ink"lination to do so, reading THE GREAT DIVORCE by CS Lewis will shed much light on this subject of how evil gains a foothold and proceeds to envelope and consume the agent by compliance of the will. He does with characters what Tolkien does! And while entirely enjoyable, THE GREAT DIVORCE is far too short, IMHO!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-11-2004, 04:17 PM | #285 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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12-11-2004, 07:24 PM | #286 | |||
The Insufferable
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Both Morgoth and Saruman, I think, were irredeemable and yet, could have been redeemed. It seems I must defer to elvish wisdom and answer both 'yes' and 'no'. It's not that Saruman, and even Morgoth, couldn't have been redeemed. It's that they couldn't be redeemed against their will, and they didn't want to be redeemed. Does that make sense? If, as Inked suggests, Saruman really is offered the chance to reform (or rather, to be reformed) and return to his original purpose, then he really wasn't irredeemable - he simply refused redemption when it was offered. The state of evil is such, I think, that even in the moments of lucidity when the corrupt individual realizes that they are in opposition to the divine will, they often do not repent, but instead attempt, in a tragic irony, to redeem themself by their own will (thus relying on their self-will even in their desire to return to the divine will). Quote:
Actually, I've played with (but cannot really stand behind) the idea that both good and evil are asymptotic, at least from the perspective of human experience. A fallen creature is incapable, at least through its own efforts, of abolishing evil within itself and becoming pure good, but is likewise not ever able to annihilate themself and in doing so attain pure evil. That is of course, not to say that pure good does not exist - just that it cannot be distilled out of a marred existance. Interesting to note that Sauron, ultimately, never became 'pure evil'. Tolkien himself wrote that, with the destruction of the ring, Sauron would be Quote:
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 12-11-2004 at 07:43 PM. |
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12-11-2004, 07:32 PM | #287 |
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i think evil could be most simply put as the failure to do good
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12-11-2004, 09:10 PM | #288 | ||||
avocatus diaboli
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I'll respond to WF a bit now... I've got to go in about half a minute...
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My math skills have dropped so far that I couldn't even remember the word until I looked it up. Am I sure I really want to take a math class next semester...? I'm basically saying, "Haha! I've had a change of heart! Maybe you're right...!" Quote:
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Anyway, that certainly bears looking at... though I wonder... considering that with the destruction of the Ring, Sauron still exists, would anyone argue that redemption is still a possibility for him? Quote:
I think that the concept of evil is a good deal more complicated than that... I'm out of time...
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12-11-2004, 11:30 PM | #289 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think this illustrates the concept of the potential for evil existing, yet evil not actually existing. Jesus Himself was said to be without sin, yet He was tempted, and apparently not just lightly, either, since He "suffered".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-12-2004, 12:40 AM | #290 | |
The Insufferable
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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12-12-2004, 12:59 PM | #291 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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12-30-2004, 10:10 PM | #292 | |
Ring-smith
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Middle earth evil
In middle earth evil and good are clearly distingwishalbe (Oh boy... try figureing that word out! )
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12-31-2004, 02:54 PM | #293 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I would agree and disagree with that. In the beginning there is a fine line between doing something for good or bad reasons, but as these deeds progrees the gap seems to largen and something can be seen easily as one or the other. Take Saruman for example. When he started studying Ring lore there must have been a fine line between getting in to depp (ass he did) and merely studying the enemy's weapon, yet after he got in to depp it became plain that the deeds he was comitting were evil. Also with Melkor, he wanted a domain of his own which might not be evil but could be considered wrongs as he was one of the Valar and he was trusted in guidance of those who would be awoken by Eru, yet he to became evil.
A quote that I like concerning evil in LotR is: Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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01-12-2005, 04:01 PM | #294 |
Hobbit
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I believe that a peson is evil if they can only do wrong and know that they are doing it, for instance (I can't remember his name) but the orc that tries to steel frodos mithril vest.
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04-15-2005, 02:36 PM | #295 |
Hobbit
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You have a point thare and i totaly agree with you
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04-16-2005, 11:23 AM | #296 |
Hobbit
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You are one smart person.
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