02-15-2007, 11:17 AM | #281 |
Elf Lord
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Wouldn't it be difficult for a US citizen to make that pledge who didn't share your faith?
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02-15-2007, 11:19 AM | #282 | |
Elf Lord
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Sure,
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Last edited by sisterandcousinandaunt : 02-15-2007 at 11:20 AM. Reason: grammatical |
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02-15-2007, 11:22 AM | #283 | |
Elf Lord
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That was the point,
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02-15-2007, 11:27 AM | #284 | |
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02-15-2007, 11:30 AM | #285 | |
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A lot of times it's just an issue where politicians can look patriotic by condemning it. And condemning it is fine with me too...
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02-15-2007, 11:33 AM | #286 | |
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02-15-2007, 12:00 PM | #287 | |
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Come on, Hector.
We're talking about the US Pledge of Allegiance, and, factually, "Under God" was inserted during a time when the purpose was to exclude 'Godless Communists". You may think it's an improvement to affirm America's reliance on God, but this business about China is completely unrelated.
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02-15-2007, 12:05 PM | #288 | |
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Pointing out that
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And I agree about the politicians. Politicians on both sides have these routines they run about things they have no intention of taking action on, usually, in my experience, when they want to distract you from where they're spending money. |
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02-15-2007, 12:13 PM | #289 | |||
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02-15-2007, 12:26 PM | #290 |
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In UK courts you can opt to make a secular oath. However, our national anthem, appalling dirge that it is, starts "God save our gracious Queen". The difference here is that we have an established Church, with the Head of State also being the Head of the Church. Again, slightly ironic in that the UK is far less religious than the supposedly disestablished (non-established?) US.
I think it's a little disingenuous to claim that "under God" could refer to any monotheist religion in the Abrahamic tradition . Tradition and culture, fine, I can go along with, much in the same way that I'm not bothered about our national anthem. Though tradition and culture would also give a pretty clear steer about which g/God is being referred to in the pledge, right? Last edited by The Gaffer : 02-15-2007 at 12:27 PM. |
02-15-2007, 12:27 PM | #291 | |
Elf Lord
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Lol
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02-15-2007, 12:41 PM | #292 |
Elf Lord
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I don't know how authoritative this is,
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm but I thought it was pretty interesting, about the pledge. I DID know that it was essentially Socialist in inspiration, though.
As happened to the Bible, later interpreters may have changed the meaning. *ducks and runs, chortling* |
02-15-2007, 12:42 PM | #293 | |||||
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*(I was about to leave that at "hop"..."Pray, hop, and shut your mouth.") Quote:
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And another thing, cultural traditions have to start somewhere, may as well put "God" in the pledge and keep him in there. Besides, it'll be fun to tell our kids the story of how "Under God" made it's way into our Pledge because Jo McCarthy thought everyone was a communist...
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02-15-2007, 12:43 PM | #294 | ||
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The Declaration of Independence contains references to God :shrug: It's just a fact that that's part of who we are as a country, both in the past and now. If enough people here want the "under God" phrase out, then that will be who we are as a country and it will come out. Quote:
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02-15-2007, 01:00 PM | #295 |
Elf Lord
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Oh OK, I thought kids did it in school and that. So what/when's it for? Naturalisation?
I suppose I would feel a bit left out if it was me that had to say it. Mind you, I think the concept of allegiance to a country is a bit weird anyway and probably wouldn't say it at all! oo-er, I can feel a new thread coming... |
02-15-2007, 01:10 PM | #296 |
Elf Lord
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It was designed for kids
to say in school. And they have, traditionally. (If you can call a tradition something with such a short history).
But, although there was a challenge under the old wording about pledging allegiance to anything other than God, which was dismissed at Supreme court level, another challenge, after Congress included it as part of the Flag code, during WWII, support the rights of students to refuse to say it. If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us. Since the addition of Under God during the McCarthy Era, it's been losing ground as a public ceremony. So, something that was supposed to provide an inclusive focus for citizens is undermined, because it actually is used as an instrument of orthodoxy. |
02-15-2007, 01:14 PM | #297 | ||
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Quote:
Interesting FACT:not all patriots wear American Flag jogging pants... Quote:
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02-15-2007, 01:22 PM | #298 | |
Elf Lord
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02-15-2007, 01:33 PM | #299 |
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Well, I wasn't raised to fling up my hands everytime I got excited, I've always held my beautiful facial features in-check for the most part. And my literal non-singing mouth.
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02-15-2007, 01:37 PM | #300 |
Elf Lord
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Hey man, are you sure you're not British?
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