11-01-2002, 01:21 PM | #281 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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LE, carbon dating is not used much in geology. It is mostly a tool for archeology. Radiometric dating is used to confirm the ages of formations, but the age of rock formations is determined by the relative stratigraphy. Without going into a long dissertation it basically means the order and rate at which formations can occur based on rock type and superposition (which can first and why). For the earth to be much younger some parameter would have to defy physics to excced rates of formation, deformation, and weathering. An example would be sedimentary rocks. If the time were speeded up in the deformantion process they rocks would melt and become igneous, crystalline rock.
As to mass extinctions, the is a great deal of evidence of these. The dinosaurs are the most well known example. The three major ages of the earth in terms of geology (Paleozoic, Mesozoic, and Cenozoic) are defined with mass extinctions as the starting points for each. A mass extinction you can see is the one being caused be humans. Many species has disappeared since human became such good hunters. You can claim deus ex machina but you cannot claim a young earth without defying all reason. The same holds true for the great flood story. If you are interested in learning about geology there is an author named John McPhee who does a reader-friendly synopsys of US geology. If you are near some mountainous or rocky areas I would reccomend a field trip after visiting a local office of the USGS for info on local geology.
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11-01-2002, 01:24 PM | #282 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-01-2002, 07:04 PM | #283 | ||
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This doesn't mean that further or different evidence won't turn up. For these mass extinctions there aren't an enormous amount of evidence for, but they can see that there have been several major shifts in the animal populations of the Earth. There is good reason to believe in these extinctions, if you aren't assuming a young Earth. |
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11-01-2002, 07:06 PM | #284 | |
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The historical evidence for the flood is there in the traditions of the peoples of the Earth. All of them differ from each other in one way or another, but they are there. And that is logical, considering that we believe all people came from Noah. His people would have spread out, and it makes sense that they carried on traditions (Obviously slightly alterred over time and changing circumstances) of such a momentous event. If you close the time frame and assume a young Earth, also all of the dragon traditions in all of the cultures of the world make more sense, for these people would have encountered dinosaurs. There are other accounts also in history of the break up of the continents, like that written by Plato of the disappearance of Atlantis. Let me remind you of our reference frame. We are looking from a tiny bit of time, just a tiny piece of all that has been and will be. And although science can show us a lot, and what we can see from this reference frame is constantly going, it can be very wrong to make assumptions based upon that reference frame. Simply because we can see the continents moving at a slow rate now, we extrapolate and assume, based on these dating methods and our own observations, that they have always been moving at a constant rate. The continents have moved a long way away from their original location in one whole, which was Pangea. In passages in Genesis it describes all of the land being in one place, all together. That would be Pangea. When something is observed, in history of other places, one cannot simply always dismiss it if it contradicts the current views of science. The observor, simply because he lived several hundred years ago, shouldn't be dismissed. As a matter of a fact, some attention at least should be put on what he's saying, for he had another reference frame than we do now. Certainly things have been added onto original truths, and a true story can get twisted to become more exciting, and other things can happen to it to alter it from its original form and distort the facts. But on the inside of most legends, there is usually at least a grain of truth. And it is interesting when looking from a Christian or Biblical standpoint, to see the truth emerge from many of these things that are thought of as legends, and come to life. It appears, because of the evidence that currently is available to science, that there cannot have been a flood and that the continents are steadily and slowly moving apart, as they have been doing for millions of years. All that I have shown is what is readily available in tradition and history, and I am confident that that won't have changed your opinion much. My Dad has much more, but unfortunately I cannot show that until it is published. |
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11-01-2002, 07:17 PM | #285 |
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LF: If there was a global flood, there should be evidence of this in the geological strata. There isn't. Deep sea cores do not show uniform "mud" layers where there should have been if there was a global flood. Nor does the disperal of the fossil record support a global flood hypothesis.
As it stands, most of the "flood stories" centred in societies whose lives were governed by the flooding seasons of the rivers, etc that they lived near. Remember, these stories predate irrigation, so they lived right near the water sources. Egypt is a prime example of this; their whole seasonality revolved around the flooding of the nile. Of course there are going to be stories within early cultures of flooding. Their very survival depended on the flood seasons.
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11-01-2002, 07:19 PM | #286 | |
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Science isn't always right - but at least it attempts to search for the truth. Withouth science - we would still think the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. Many scientific people that were looking for the truth were excommunicated and put to death by religious people that refused to give up their beliefs. This is similar to what is going on regarding evolution (although I don't think people are being put to death).
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11-01-2002, 07:40 PM | #287 | ||
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The amount of uranium in the earth is stable and no mechanism has been found to remove it from earth. Also, as I stated the radiometric dating only confirms field observations on the age of the earth. Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 11-01-2002 at 07:45 PM. |
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11-01-2002, 07:56 PM | #288 | ||
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BeardofPants, you are speaking of different floodstories than I am. There are stories in China, and worldwide which describe the whole nation being covered by a flood, and only a tiny amount of people surviving, frequently on a boat. They aren't limited to groups that lived on the waterside.
Also, if you are going to continue to refer to these sea cores as evidence against what I'm saying, I'd appreciate it if you gave me a bit more detailed of an account as to how it works. One further question: Do you think that, if the continents, as I have theorized, have been moving at a fast rate, this would have any effect upon the stability of the mud level? That's simply an idea I thought of just now, I don't know much about the sea cores, and you're welcome to shoot that one down . Quote:
That statement simply states that from the Biblical perspective, a mass extinction of the dinosaurs doesn't seem extremely likely. Even though I know none of you were moving from the Biblical perspective. It is known who wrote various books of the Bible, and I don't think that Creationism can be proved. However, I think that various things that the Bible says God did, did happen and can be shown. Quote:
But science does seek to know the truth and puts its best leg forward at finding it. I know that many wonderful scientific people have been badly treated by the Church for 'heretical' views. I'm not trying to defend the Church hierarchy, and I think that religious people shouldn't shy away from things that go against their views, but rather should come to the forefront of knowledge about them. If what they believe they know to be true, as I do, they should become familiar with the things that go against it, so that they can discuss such topics from a basis of knowledge. |
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11-01-2002, 07:58 PM | #289 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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As for the flood, there is nothing inthe was of eviidence. BoP is right about the flood story. It was recorded in Sumeria as old, old, tale. It was merely picked up by the Hebrews when Abraham was there. There have been suggestions of a cataclysmic flood in the Black Sea area dating to 10,000 BC. The research is incomplete and a true link may never be found since the tale probably existed as oral tradition until writing was invented. Tales of Atlantis and the Loch Ness monster are fine stories for children but they hold no real historical value.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-01-2002, 08:00 PM | #290 |
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The pressure and temperature problems of very fast moving continents are insurmountable. Basically they would melt and all life would be incinerated.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-01-2002, 08:07 PM | #291 | |
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11-01-2002, 08:20 PM | #292 | |
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 11-01-2002 at 08:21 PM. |
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11-01-2002, 08:39 PM | #293 | ||
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The account of Atlantis was written by Plato, and personally I'm a little surprised that you're willing to ignore his account so readily. Remember that at that time they didn't know that the world was round, therefore it makes sense that if he saw the continent drifting away over a period of time, he would assume it was sinking. You know what, all of you, I realize that there is evidence for the accepted theories that science has so far proposed. They are reasonable theories, and contradicting it with a Biblical theory requires evidence as well. Unfortunately, I am not capable of giving what I believe, as it is taken from my Dad, a scientist who has studied this area extensively. You have acknowledged that there are errors in science. These errors are usually supported by evidence, and upon them other theories are built. Thus, they are made very painful to correct. Unfortunately, I won't be able to continue on this strain or give you my full opinions, as they are my Dad's. I know that they go against the way Christian scientists have been speaking in general, because they are trying to conform the Bible to science. I think it is much better to look more closely at scientific theories than to twist what the Bible says, as it is God's Word. Obviously, a nonChristian wouldn't come from that perspective, but I think that it is Christians' duty to learn, to question, and to be open to new things that they didn't expect. |
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11-01-2002, 09:02 PM | #294 | |
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You're not realizing that I'm suggesting the continental divide hadn't happened yet at the time of the flood. Continental plates moving are what cause mountains, thus Mount Ararat didn't have to be that large, at least not at that time. How did Noah get the kangaroos to Australia? Noah didn't do that . Species migrate, just like humans moved to inhabit over the whole Earth. They couldn't all stay in one place, especially not as there were so many different species competing for life. They had to move. Besides, it is possible that kangaroos hadn't even evolved yet. There is evidence against the belief of a flood, based on science. I don't think, however, that any of you have examined closely the possibility that some of these theories are wrong, based upon the Bible. That is only logical, as you are not Christian. Theories have evidence, but they can be found to be wrong. Even if other theories are built upon them, and also have to support them. These difficulties have been found in the past, and can be found in the future. As for the young Earth . . . I'm actually going to drop discussing that. The Bible, anyway, doesn't say one way or the other as to whether the Earth was created swiftly or is old or new, (Unless you take each day to have been twenty four hours, an assumption that we haven't any right to take) and it could have been old. |
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11-01-2002, 09:36 PM | #295 | ||||
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-01-2002, 09:43 PM | #296 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Your magic mountain theory also presumes immpossible geologic rates.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-01-2002, 10:01 PM | #297 |
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I know that all of you have been giving the scientific views of the now, and that there are good reasons why science believes the way they do. The reason that my arguments are so apparently lame is because I have only given a few of the outcomes of the main theory, and I cannot reveal the main theory. It was stupid of me to even try challenging what is generally believed based on a small part of what is known. Very stupid indeed, actually.
Not that I take back anything that I have actually posted, however foolish it might appear. Some scientific views go against the Bible, and some Christian views which attempt to connect it to science go against the Bible as well. Many views that are assumed by Christians to contradict the Bible actually don't. I agree that science is one source from which a lot of correct information comes, but I think that some of the views and evidences concerning this subject that are commonly upheld now actually are incorrect. Anyway, I must be going now to eat supper. I'll talk to the rest of you more later. |
11-01-2002, 10:11 PM | #298 |
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I want to know - if Noah took only two of each species - what did the carnivores eat? Did they just starve? If a lion ate a goat after getting off the ark - then there wouldn't a pair of goats to have kids. Or was there breeding on the ark - so there were a lot more animals that left than went on. Of course - still there was only so many animals the ark could have carried and I'm not sure if many of the carnivores could have survived while their prey gestated.
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11-01-2002, 10:44 PM | #299 |
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Floods? I like rain.
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11-01-2002, 11:45 PM | #300 |
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I think that it would be pretty reasonable to assume that Noah brought extra animals for the carnivores to eat - Noah is instructed to bring food for his family and the animals, and I think that it is reasonable to assume that he knew the carnivores ate meat. He was probably partial to a steak occasionally, himself! They definitely bred on the ark - the Bible says that they went off by families. I guess they weren't TOO seasick ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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