12-24-2003, 12:41 PM | #281 | ||
The Tall
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If you examine Turgon's rôle in ME, he is the perfect example of someone who only acted when it was convinient for him to do so.
From the Published Silmarillion Quote:
From the Wanderings of Húrin Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-24-2003, 12:44 PM | #282 | |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
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From The War of the Jewels: Wanderings of Húrin
Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-24-2003, 04:10 PM | #283 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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turgon was acting in the best interest of his people, which can be cruel at times, and as his remorse shows, it was not something that he enjoyed doing... this is the sign of a good leader
on finrod... he was a victim of some tough circumstances, but leaving your people, for whatever reason, especially in times of turmoil is never a good thing... maybe he should have done some more considering before letting celegorm and curufin's people in in the first place (i doubt that turgon would have let them waltz in if they had come to his door... or at least he would have instituted some strong safeguards to keep their power in check)... finrod was much too trusting
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
12-24-2003, 05:12 PM | #284 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
I don't think Finrod was too trusting. I do think he was kind though. You must remember also, that Finrod's policy of secrecy was not the same as Turgon's. Although Nargothrond was hidden, or at least the underground fortress, the realm itself extended far and wide. The largest realm in all of Beleriand. Finrod accepted Celegorm and Curufin and their people in his kingdom as his kin. He was friendly with Maglor and Maedhros aswell. Up to the point of him revealing the quest of the Silmaril, he had no reason to not accept them, or to bannish them. He tells Beren that they showed friendship to him in every need. I am sure that Finrod, though kind, was not off his guard with them, but up to that point, he had no reason to take any action against them.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-24-2003, 05:56 PM | #285 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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fair enough, i didn't mean to imply that turgon was better, he just had different shortcomings from a leadership point of view... i think all the elves that came to beleriand can be faulted as having too much pride, but the topic is "favorite" elf-king and not "best" (and as i posted earlier, finrod is one of my favorites too )... though if i was to choose the best, i'd probably go with finarfin... since he was the only one wise enough to say no to fëanor in the beginning
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
12-24-2003, 06:00 PM | #286 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-25-2003, 12:34 PM | #287 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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He could try open war, and be crushed. He could try a guerrillia (sp?) war, with the same result. Finrod also 'abandoned' the Noldor, and did less than Turgon to aid them (if I remember correctly, a while ago since I read the SIlm.).
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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12-25-2003, 12:40 PM | #288 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-25-2003, 12:44 PM | #289 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Quote:
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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12-25-2003, 12:51 PM | #290 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-25-2003, 12:55 PM | #291 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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*smacks head with frying pan*
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
12-25-2003, 12:58 PM | #292 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-26-2003, 08:22 AM | #293 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-26-2003, 03:04 PM | #294 | ||
The Tall
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Quote:
From The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-26-2003, 06:40 PM | #295 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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if we're going to bring lost tales into the picture a lot of characters and motivations would be changed
are you suggesting that turgon should have let húrin in after he was released by melkor?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
12-27-2003, 07:19 AM | #296 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Quote:
Quote:
Turgon's Fault with capital F was not to heed Ulmo's advice. But he repented and defended his city and his people valiantly, paying his debt. I think people who err, but still want to do the right thing and struggle with themselves to achieve it, are loveable and far more interesting than those who always seem to do everything right. Perfect people are booooring.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-27-2003 at 08:30 AM. |
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12-27-2003, 08:24 AM | #297 |
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Turgon did a good job protecting his people, until the end. And I think he did it not only because of the beauty of his city, but also because he feared for the life of his people (if Morgoth discovered them they wouldn't stand a chanse).
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
12-27-2003, 10:40 AM | #298 | |||||
The Tall
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Quote:
As Artanis was posted, there is none. Quote:
Quote:
What was Húrin's reward for saving Gondolin? From Wanderings of Húrin Quote:
Quote:
Now Turgon was very ungrateful. He's my favorite ungrateful ñoldorian king.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-27-2003, 11:08 AM | #299 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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But what if the spies of Morgoth had seen the Eagles bring Húrin to Gondolin (as they surely would have done, since they followed him)?
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
12-27-2003, 11:38 AM | #300 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
But what if Húrin had told Morgoth what he knew about Gondolin a loooooooooong time ago?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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