Why you believe what you believe I

[Lief Erikson]

I can understand your not rewriting it, with its having been so long. I'm glad you're now involved in this thread!

[Beren3000]

Excuse me for just bumping in on this thread, but I saw an interesting statement:

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

There is one Reality, and there are many religions, and I don't see this as a problem. I think anyone can realize the Truth, whether he or she be a Hindu, or a Catholic, or an Atheist.

I agree with you, Ñólendil, about there being an absolute Truth.
But my question is, the beliefs at the core of each religion are so fundamentally different, that they lead you down different paths to the "Truth", so much so that you end up reaching multitple Truths, don't you?
The best example would be to pit Religion (any religion) against Atheism. They're just so inherently different that you can't end up reaching the same Truth with each. See what I mean?

[Nurvingiel]

Brilliant post Ñólendil, very well-written! (And not too long at all!) I'm glad you got lured into the thread, I think your discussions will be very interesting.

I've got some questions (I think you're on the Hot Seat now):

Do you believe that God(s) (by whatever name God is called) is more important than religion?

If you believe that God exists and that there is an ultimate Truth, do you think an atheist person would only realize that truth if they felt the presence of a higher power? Why or why not?

Do you believe in reincarnation? If so, in what form? (I mean, how does it work, what happens etc.)

EDIT: You're more than welcome to join in Beren!

[inked]

What is the goal of Hinduism? of Buddhism?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Meriadoc Brandybuck

*thinks a while* Whoever want to take the hot seat can go. I don't understand your question.

Thanks, Merry, for sharing your beliefs and taking our questions I hope you'll stick around and ask some questions to the next Hot Seaters I think it's a really good thing to think through your beliefs, and examine other people's beliefs, and bring up questions and things like that.

Glad to see you, Ñólendil Get comfy in the seat, and let's start those questions coming, people! I see there's already some good ones pending, so I'll hold off on mine a bit.

(glad you've joined in, too, Beren!)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What bought you to those religions and what made you stick with them?

[Nurvingiel]

Yeah, get really comfortable! Just to reiterate all those questions for you buddy...

Beren3000:
But my question is, the beliefs at the core of each religion are so fundamentally different, that they lead you down different paths to the "Truth", so much so that you end up reaching multitple Truths, don't you?
The best example would be to pit Religion (any religion) against Atheism. They're just so inherently different that you can't end up reaching the same Truth with each. See what I mean?

Me:
Do you believe that God(s) (by whatever name God is called) is more important than religion?

If you believe that God exists and that there is an ultimate Truth, do you think an atheist person would only realize that truth if they felt the presence of a higher power? Why or why not?

Do you believe in reincarnation? If so, in what form? (I mean, how does it work, what happens etc.)

inked:
What is the goal of Hinduism? of Buddhism?

Telcontar_Dunedain:
What bought you to those religions and what made you stick with them?

RÃ*an:
And I'll add one of mine now, because I didn't see it in your intro, Ñólendil - WHY do you believe what you believe? IOW, you weren't born saying you were a Hindu. What events/thoughts brought you to where you now make that statement?

And we're all happy to see you in here. That's a start! Happy hot seating! (A new Entmoot verb. Use it and get it in the dictionary! )

[Rían]

Good job, Nurvi - I was just going to do that, and you beat me to it! *is very grateful!*

And I'll add one of mine now, because I didn't see it in your intro, Ñólendil -
1. WHY do you believe what you believe? IOW, you weren't born saying you were a Hindu. What events/thoughts brought you to where you now make that statement?

EDIT - whoops, I see that's what TD asked already!

[Ñólendil]

I agree with you, Ñólendil, about there being an absolute Truth.
But my question is, the beliefs at the core of each religion are so fundamentally different, that they lead you down different paths to the "Truth", so much so that you end up reaching multitple Truths, don't you?
The best example would be to pit Religion (any religion) against Atheism. They're just so inherently different that you can't end up reaching the same Truth with each. See what I mean?

I do see what you mean, but I do not agree. Different paths? Yes. Multiple truths? I do not believe so.

I do not believe so, because I believe in the mystery of the nature of God, and Reality. Christians may use the name "Kingdom of Heaven". Buddhists may call it "nirvana". Hindus may call it "Brahman." Atheists may simply call it "happiness". You may disagree with this last sentence. Yes, Atheists may call it "happiness". Everyone has a different idea of what the goal in life (or after life) is, but to me, they are all the same. Some atheists are depressed, and feel happiness doesn't matter--others know well that happiness in life is important, and they strive for it. They may not believe in God, or the nonsense of "Ultimate Reality", but they understand that it is important to be kind to one another, and to try to be happy. And to me, the ultimate happiness is Brahman, the "Absolute", a name for God in Hinduism. I believe the ultimate reality can be realized in this lifetime. I believe the Kingdom of Heaven is a state of being as much as it is a place within ourselves, a seed waiting to be watered. And as the Buddhists say about nirvana ("the extinction of notions"), this all comes to pass when all that is unreal fades away. So I believe that we all can reach this one Truth. I don't think we can all be literally correct about all the specifics, but I do believe than any major faith of the world, or non-faith such as agnosticism or atheism, can lead one to salvation.

Do you believe that God(s) (by whatever name God is called) is more important than religion?

I don't believe that the names of God are more important than religion. I think the idea of God is equally important as religion, but religion may come without the idea of God. Most Buddhists, for example, don't conceive of there being a God, or at least a personal God. I do however believe that God Him/Herself is far more important than religion, and anyway you can accept the presence of God into your life is good. To go back to some of my ideas I said above, the presence of God can come without belief in Him. Who has the power to restrict and guard against the presence of the only Presence? The omnipresent? I think God touches, guides, and exists within us all.

If you believe that God exists and that there is an ultimate Truth, do you think an atheist person would only realize that truth if they felt the presence of a higher power? Why or why not?

Yes, and no. I think an atheist may feel the presence of a higher power without calling it a higher power. He may see it as an inner power, or a power merely of himself. And he would be right, I think. God works through us. I believe that the Truth is bereft of names.

Do you believe in reincarnation? If so, in what form? (I mean, how does it work, what happens etc.)

I do believe in reincarnation, yes. When it comes to something like this, I think I should stress that I don't claim to have ultimate knowledge about what happens when you die. I have my beliefs, which I think are a form of knowledge, but they are open beliefs ... I won't be beating myself up if they turn out untrue ... I believe what makes the most sense to me.

I believe, as is taught in Vedanta, a philosophy of Hinduism, that we have all lived a countless number of lives. We all possess a soul, called Atman, in Vedanta. Our Atman is a manifestation of the Divine (God), and it is what we must realize in order to become one with Brahman (the Absolute). Hindus differ, whether there is only one Atman, or many. The point here is unimportant. I think we have all lived a countless number of lives as every kind of sentient being there is, until humanity. We have done this, I believe, because we need to understand suffering, in order to know liberation. We live in the realm of samsara, characterized by birth, death, suffering. In every life, we move closer to God-realization. That is not to say that the insect can understand and have faith. It is merely to say that each life brings its lesson. Sometimes we don't learn, and we have to take steps backward. Sometimes we do, and we move on. But humanity is where the enlightenment happens. If I have not been specific enough here, I apologize

What is the goal of Hinduism? of Buddhism?

In Hinduism, the goal is to become One with God. That is not to say that I will one day be the creator. It means that I will become One with the creator, I will be one with the reality of God. The Self, the Atman, the Soul, must be realized in order for this to happen. Then, after the body dies, all divisions melt away, and there is only One.

In Buddhism, the goal is to realize that you are pure consciousness. We have a self, and that self is made of ever changing parts, and because it is always changing, it is not real. The self must be cast away, until nothing is left, except for Reality: the innermost clear light. Buddha-nature. We become Buddhas then, "enlightened ones". If a Budda wishes to return to samsara (the realm in which we live) to help others, he is called a Bodhisattva. His Holiness the Dalai Lama is considered to be an incarnation of the Bodhisattva of Great Compassion ... Avolokiteshvara, I believe the name is.

Hinduism and Buddhism are very close, as religions go. Buddhism actually arose from Hinduism, as the Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) was a Hindu.

What bought you to those religions and what made you stick with them?

It seems I was largely brought to the three religions that have touched my life (Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism) because of circumstance, in the least because of circumstance. I was going through a rough time in my life, in my early teens, and I wanted to be baptised, and to start going to a church regularly. I knew of a Church my aunts attended up north in Oregon (I live in California), so we visited a church of that denomination (the United Church of Christ), where I live. I became a Christian after that. A couple years later, I decided I wanted to learn more about another religion. I saw a book by the Dalai Lama at the bookstore, called "Live in a Better Way, Reflections on Truth, Love, and Happiness". It seemed helpful, so I bought it, and although the Dalai Lama wrote for all audiences, this book was able to introduce me to Buddhism. After that I decided I wasn't a Christian or a Buddhist, or I was both. I didn't matter, I saw the truth in them. Years after that, I decided I would look into a third. Surely, if two can hold so much truth for me, there was a third. Eventually, on the internet, of all places, I read that the most representative philosophy of Hinduism was Vedanta. So I looked up "Vedanta" and found the Vedanta Society of Southern California, which had a temple in Hollywood.

I have been visiting that temple on sundays ever since. I have stuck with the principles I have found because they strike me as true, and good, and healthy.

[Ñólendil]

And I'll add one of mine now, because I didn't see it in your intro, Ñólendil - WHY do you believe what you believe? IOW, you weren't born saying you were a Hindu. What events/thoughts brought you to where you now make that statement?

When you put it that way it's slightly different than what Telcontar said.

I use the word "Hindu" to describe myself because it is the religion that most closely resembles my worldview, or vice-versa. Also, people like names. I can't just be Dylan, Who Believes What He Believes. I have found that I must be Dylan of the so-and-so religion. Which is fine, because as I said, Hinduism most closely resembles what I believe. Hinduism is like a second home for me, ... I can believe in it, and it offers me the freedom to integrate what I already know to be true.

[Nurvingiel]

Suddenly you reminded me of the main character in "Life of Pi", in the part of the book before the ship wreck. Have you ever read that? I think you like it.

Brilliant post Ñólendil, I must sleep and have an exam, then I can reread and digest your posts properly. Very interesting!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

Also, people like names.

2. Why is that, do you think? Do you like names? Do you think names are necessary/unnecessary? helpful/unhelpful? why?

[Ñólendil]

Names are fine, and helpful, it's the need for names that bothers me. I think people get too attached to the word, and not that which is given the word.

People want cookie-cutter labels, I think, so that they can clearly understand where someone is coming from and what he/she believes, and how he/she relates to themselves. Without words and names, we just can't communicate and function in our societies. But I think we put too much stock in them. Labels can seperate people who ought not to feel seperated.

[inked]

Nolendil,

Would I understand correctly if I said that the goal of Hinduism is the loss of selfhood (which is only illusion anyway) in the All?

[Lizra]

Nolendel said: "I think an atheist may feel the presence of a higher power without calling it a higher power".

(the next part is the best part for Lizra).......


"He (she ) may see it as an inner power, or a power merely of herself"

So......Is this another way of saying I know what I know? Which is true, and the reason I can't go for the stuff in the bible?

and this...." I can't just be Dylan, Who Believes What He Believes."...why not?

[Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

I can't just be Dylan, Who Believes What He Believes. I have found that I must be Dylan of the so-and-so religion.

Hey now. You'll always be Dylan who-has-had-more-psuedonyms-than-I-can-remember in my book.

[Rían]

Any questions for Dylan, WF? (besides what color orcs were, or whatever you guys used to joke about!)

[Ñólendil]

Nolendil,

Would I understand correctly if I said that the goal of Hinduism is the loss of selfhood (which is only illusion anyway) in the All?

Essentially, yes. When speaking of Hinduism, though, "selfhood" may not be the best word to cast into the negative role, the thing which must be lossed in order for the ultimate gain. This is because the word "Self" is often used by modern day Hindu philosophers to convey the Atman, the soul, which is without limitations, and closely related to Brahman, which may be called the "All", as you have called it. Perhaps instead of "selfhood", "ego" should be used. Not "ego" as in "arrogance", but "ego" as the thing which hinders us from becoming one with the Al, i.e., everything tied up with "I" and "me" and "mine", excluding the soul.

But, to repeat, yes, you would be right in saying so.

Nolendel said: "I think an atheist may feel the presence of a higher power without calling it a higher power".

(the next part is the best part for Lizra).......


"He (she ) may see it as an inner power, or a power merely of herself"

So......Is this another way of saying I know what I know? Which is true, and the reason I can't go for the stuff in the bible?

and this...." I can't just be Dylan, Who Believes What He Believes."...why not?

Lizra, I'm not sure if I understand you exactly, so please correct me, if my response doesn't seem quite right. Don't know where you're coming from, that is.

Are you an atheist? I was merely trying to put forward a scenario in which the truth can be grasped by an atheist. I should say here that I do not mean to say "well Atheists are basically theists, they just don't know it." I actually mean to say "atheists are atheists, and that's fine, the truth is not exclusive."

My quote which you put in your post can be taken, I see now, in a variety of ways. To know that you yourself are the power, is a very empowering thing which can easily, it seems to me, be accepted by atheists. It IS perhaps a way of saying "I know what I know, and that's that", and perhaps "-I don't need to read the Bible to know this". I think this is a perfectly valid stance. I think there are guides in this world can help us along, we can learn from the teachers of the past, who, some would say, can be present for us, but I also think that nothing will be done if you don't do it. Buddha did not enlighten everyone, before he died. Jesus did not turn everyone into compassionate, loving beings. It's miracle, not magic. I think these people provide ways for us to follow them, and become like they are, for the sake of all. But, you have to do it yourself, and you don't have to do it under someone else's guidelines, or rules, or laws. Some very liberal unorthodox Hindus have been for this approach, such as Jiddu Krishnamurti. He denounced the idea of a "guru" to guide us, and said you have to pave your own way. Figure out what you believe for yourself, in other words, and find the truth your own way. The goal, whatever you call it, must be experienced. It is never handed to us.

Even if you believe, coming from a different angle, that having faith in Christ and accepting his teachings, you will go to the Kingdom of Heaven and dwell with Him after death, there are requirements there. In this mindset, also, no one, not Christ, hands you world of God just because.

That is not to say that the Truth is exclusive! I think I already said I believe it is an all-encompassing thing. Yes, it has to be worked for. Yes, we experience pain on our jouney to realization. But, in my opinion, everyone realizes it in the end.

And now I'm rambling.

As for your question about the "I can't just be Dylan, Who Believes What He Believes", I was speaking from the perspective of the people who seem to need names, or labels. I would LIKE to just be Dylan, Who Believes What He Believes, I would like to live in a world undivided by religions. But I am happy being a Hindu. That is, what I am has not changed at all, only the name. You asked "why not". My answer: you're right, I can just be Dylan. But it is easier on everybody if I choose a way by which they can identify me. I think that's what I meant.

Wayfarer, nice of you to drop in. And I'm glad you have a book with interesting names attached to me in it. I just hope "Randy" isn't one of them.

Rian, kind of YOU to remember something of our old jokes.

[Lizra]

Thank you Nolendil. I am an atheist...did you read my "take" on things as the first hot seater on this thread? So...I know what I know, the heaven and hell bits of christianity seem ridiculous, and many christians are very hung up on this....so trying to understand your "end product" of we can all come to an understanding of "the truth" through many paths sounds fab...but how often does this happen? It seems many rules and regulation type religious people get hung up on the dogma and take a permanent pit stop? Errrr....define "the truth" not really...it is rather undefinable...unless of course it is all spelled out chapter by chapter in a black or white book with gold writing and edges...
As far as reincarnation...from my first posts, I believe our energy is recycled, but merely as plain old energy. The hindu thing keeps this energy grouped together somehow in a "soul" that moves from being to being, unaware of itself, but evovling along the way...till the truth is reached?

AS far as the guides (jesus, buddah etc) what?...you read their stuff and toss some of it aside and save what you think are the kernals of truth? Why bother with all that....if you can feel the truth within yourself...strong...clear....why confuse the issue?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

I do believe in reincarnation, yes. When it comes to something like this, I think I should stress that I don't claim to have ultimate knowledge about what happens when you die. I have my beliefs, which I think are a form of knowledge, but they are open beliefs ... I won't be beating myself up if they turn out untrue ... I believe what makes the most sense to me.

I believe, as is taught in Vedanta, a philosophy of Hinduism, that we have all lived a countless number of lives. We all possess a soul, called Atman, in Vedanta. Our Atman is a manifestation of the Divine (God), and it is what we must realize in order to become one with Brahman (the Absolute). Hindus differ, whether there is only one Atman, or many. The point here is unimportant. I think we have all lived a countless number of lives as every kind of sentient being there is, until humanity. We have done this, I believe, because we need to understand suffering, in order to know liberation. We live in the realm of samsara, characterized by birth, death, suffering. In every life, we move closer to God-realization. That is not to say that the insect can understand and have faith. It is merely to say that each life brings its lesson. Sometimes we don't learn, and we have to take steps backward. Sometimes we do, and we move on. But humanity is where the enlightenment happens. If I have not been specific enough here, I apologize

If reincarnation does occur then surely we'd remember being different species and things we did as them.