04-27-2003, 10:58 AM | #281 | |
The Insufferable
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I agree. I myself liked Jackson's Aragorn several orders of magnitude better than Bakashi's. Because it was quite a bit better done. But is that because jackson 'humanized' the character? Not really. No. It's because Viggo Mortensen is a good actor, and can (or could) convey far much more of the character than a silly badly drawn cartoon. You've read the books, but you might have forgotten that Aragorn /is/ unsure in places. He /does/ have doubts- but for different, and infinitely better reasons than those jackson attempts to palm off. Have you noticed that one of the places where Tolkien's Aragorn displays the most doubt, directly after Gandalf's death when he is forced to assume the mantle of leadership, is one of the places where Jackson's Aragorn displays none whatsoever? Does that really make sense if what you are saying is true? No. Because Jackson, though he tried, has failed to humanize Aragorn. Oh, his character is more understandable to people today, but that's Modernization, not humanization. He's turned him into the sort of conflicted protagonist that's expected today, with issues and complexes rather than real considerations that worry him. He has ceased to become a hero who will become king, and become an action-figure with a veneer of trite emotionalism. That's not to say that he's entirely bad- there were many places in which the part was well scripted and played. But there were others where he departed wildly from the character of Aragorn in the novels.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 04-27-2003 at 11:00 AM. |
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04-27-2003, 11:13 AM | #282 |
Banned
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Nothing left to say.
Dang it! I had all this stuff I wanted to say. But reading all the posts, well... it's already been said.
Oh, yeah, about the cartoon. I was warned away from it, so I never watched it. My friend said, "It sucked like an industrial strength vacuum cleaner." Last edited by Ruinel : 04-27-2003 at 11:15 AM. |
04-27-2003, 11:15 AM | #283 |
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I will say that I agree with BB on the bit of "straight from the pages of the book Aragorn" would have been too "Dudley Do-Right
and rigid for me. Same with Boromir as the "corrupted man". I like the humanized version the films offer. (as an alternative, not transformation) Wayfarer is correct ,(IMO) it is all a matter of taste, but I am glad for the opportunity "to indulge" ! So are alot of other people, if the $ talks. Hey, he got the rights to the film....que sera, que sera! I don't think some of you should take BB so seriously! Nibble the worm, but don't swallow the hook!
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04-27-2003, 11:28 AM | #284 |
Enting
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Tolkien's Aragorn is a marvelously complex character, a man who is at once vulnerable and possessed of a great strength which he has acquired in a life of solitary service to people who treat him with contemptuous disregard (Bree etc.). The scene at Bree where he attempts to gain the hobbits' trust and friendship by virtue of his presence alone (and fails until Butterbur produces Gandalf's letter) is rather tragic in a way. Eventually, by virtue of his own personality and acts of courage he does gain that affection and trust, but it is not an easy thing and in the beginning, he has to be content with a trust garnered from his relationship with the beloved (and trusted) Gandalf. Aragorn - especially in FOTR - is anything but a "cardboard" superhero - the usual argument made by Jackson's apologists as to why Tolkien's character would not "connect" with the audience (and repeated by BB). Even when the remainder of the Company (Legolas and Gimli) await his choice to follow either Frodo or the orcs, he laments that they have picked "a poor chooser".
The sad thing is that the actor Jackson was smart enough to choose - Viggo Mortensen - could have carried off Tolkien's Aragorn perfectly. Indeed, in the beginning - until Arwen interruptus - I thought that he was going to do just that. Unfortunately, Jackson opted for a combination of feminist "mistique" and therapeutic nonsense and produced a weak, vacillating fellow who spent all his time running away. I guess this must "connect" with Jackson's audience - or at least the more neurotic feminists among them! Thank heaven Professor Tolkien was spared that concern. He only had to produce a great story - which he did!
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04-27-2003, 11:30 AM | #285 | |
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-sigh- Good lord, how many times do we have to tell you: The Characterization IS a theme! Or do you just not count it, because either we say it is a theme, and we obviously must be wrong, or because you know in your heart of hearts that the characters were not captured the same, or something? Why does that theme not count for jack?
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04-27-2003, 11:38 AM | #286 | |||
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Don't you realize that I was defending you when I made the post about heroic resolve? It was not sarcastically intended. Now, on to real debate:
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04-27-2003, 11:42 AM | #287 | ||||||||
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EDIT: Supposed to be directly after Wayfarer's post. Sorry, took a long time typing!
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There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... Last edited by Elf Girl : 04-27-2003 at 11:44 AM. |
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04-27-2003, 11:43 AM | #288 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Note: that was supposed to be "not even necessary", not "even necessary". See title for more info.
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04-27-2003, 12:58 PM | #289 |
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I'm ready for another farty noise!
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04-27-2003, 01:05 PM | #290 | |
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And to add, if you are trying to use the term book purists as an insult, then to let you know that I take great pride of being a purist. I will scream it with pride, I am a book purist, IMO it's better then being a PJ sheep.
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04-27-2003, 02:05 PM | #291 | |
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Black Breathalizer, Ph.D. A Proud Member of PJ's Sheep |
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04-27-2003, 03:35 PM | #292 |
Elf Lord
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Okay, enough silliness...back on topic.
I'm being told that the characters themselves are a "big theme" and that changes to the characters represent a major deviation from Tolkien. I would agree that for a film to work as a great adaptation of a book, the characters of the film need to be true to their book soulmates. A perfect example of an untrue character from LOTR was the way Ralph Bakshi portrayed Sam. What moron possessed the body of Samwise Gamgee in that sickening film? There's never been a bigger butcher job in cinematic history. But I see a huge difference between an Aragorn who has aspects of his character highlighted or supressed in different ways in the film from the book and a total personality change. As with everything we've been discussing, this is all subjective, but I certainly see the look and personality of the film Aragorn to be a good representation of the book Aragorn. Are they identical? Nope. But on the other hand, I feel it is dishonest for the critics here to say that PJ's Aragorn is a whimp who bares no resemblance whatsoever to the noble ranger of the books. That's utter hogwash. If you want to make the characters themselves "a theme" then you need to make the appropriate comparisons. The questions should be "Did PJ's character reflect the personalities of the characters and promote the same or similar messages from the books?" versus "Are PJ's characters identical to the books?" You Literal Translationists (not to be confused with the insulting slang word: Purists) are driving me nuts. |
04-27-2003, 03:49 PM | #293 |
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Did someone call for a "Bliss Ninny"? No? .... too bad ! Oh well. Have fun.
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04-27-2003, 04:52 PM | #294 |
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Frankly, one cannot build up Jackson by defaming Bakshi. Bakshi was a cartoonist who had produced that cultural gem, Fritz the Cat. He was an opportunist who saw a very popular story and wanted to cash in on it.
Jackson, on the other hand, went into the project after the original huge popularity of LOTR had quieted to the point of making it a less commercially tempting commodity. Jackson also raised a great deal of money by promising to remain as faithful as his medium would permit to the book. Everyone knew there would be changes, but no one thought (at least no one that I know of) that Jackson would decide to not only film, but rewrite the story. At least Bakshi with all his opportunism had sufficent respect for Tolkien that he tried to bring the actual work to the screen. His lack of success was unfortunate, but it does not mitigate his intentions. Jackson, on the other hand, failed before the first frame was exposed because his intentions were far less pure.
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04-27-2003, 06:08 PM | #295 | |
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04-27-2003, 06:32 PM | #296 | |
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04-27-2003, 06:44 PM | #297 | |||||
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I would also like to say that I agree completely about Bakshi. Trash!
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Heheh... "bares no resemblance"... Quote:
That is what we have been doing. See my previous two posts. Quote:
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Crud. Stupid vB code won't make the bold right. Well, it will have to do.
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04-27-2003, 07:12 PM | #298 | |
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Bakshi was hardly a "purist", merely an opportunist who believed that he would do better if he stuck with the original. And, by the way, Jackson himself admitted that he did better when he stuck to the original! Too bad he kept forgetting that little fact, especially in the second film! Finally, you do not strengthen your argument by attributing to those who dispute you beliefs they do not hold and conclusions they have not reached. To read your above post, you would think that I had brought Bakshi into the debate and, furthermore, that I had defended his film. Neither, of course, is the case.
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04-27-2003, 07:21 PM | #299 | |
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04-27-2003, 07:31 PM | #300 | |
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