10-06-2008, 09:27 PM | #281 |
Elf Lord
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EF, you need to decide whether you do or do not believe Jesus existed. Then one could argue the point. However, a doubleminded person is unstable in all their ways and cannot be argued with because they being uncommitted they won't decide.
Now, if you decide "Nope, never existed" we can go the historical proof route. If you decide, "he existed" then we can go the claims he made route. But if you can't pick a route to go, just do what Yogi Berra suggests: "When you come to a fork in the middle of the road, take it."
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-06-2008, 10:18 PM | #282 | ||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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For this, it is useful to look at the writings of the Early Church Fathers. The apostles (we read about this in the Book of Acts and the writings of the Early Church Fathers repeatedly) appointed successors who they commanded to pass on their teaching accurately, never swerving from it. These men knew what the apostles thought about how much of the New Testament was literally accurate, and they wrote repeatedly about the New Testament's events as literal history. They are the best source of evidence we have about it. The Epistles also confirm the literal truth of the major events of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. There isn't any early source saying that the Gospels were intended to be only read symbolically (though I'm not denying that symbolism was seen in the Gospels- they tended to see Gospels as yielding symbolic and literal truths simultaneously). Quote:
http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm As for evidence outside of the New Testament itself, here are some quotes from contemporary historians referring to Jesus: http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm And this article discusses the interpolations into Josephus' writing about Jesus that have been examined later. Read these two as you choose, depending on how interested you are in the evidence . I think it's worthwhile. But make up your own mind, of course. Quote:
Here's a pretty good source about it, though there are many more online that have more depth. http://www.molloy.edu/sophia/ancient...ncenturies.htm Quote:
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You've received a very one-sided picture. Quote:
The Christians came to power in the first place through peace- the peaceful conversion of Constantine, and their own evangelism of the Roman Empire. Throughout the Early and Middle Medieval Ages, when Christians ruled, there were no major rebellions until the High Medieval Ages. There also was no imperialism. There were no genocides. There were atrocities and terrible things that happened, of course, and tortures were sometimes used, especially by secular rulers. There were also wars at times. But the violence of that era appears to have been significantly smaller than it has been in the centuries following, with our colonialism, imperialism, racist slavery, and numerous genocides. Just to set the records a bit straighter about violence and Christianity. Quote:
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To explain it a little, I'll point out that children tend to inherit their beliefs, attitudes, and dispositions, genetic and social, from their parents. A parent with alcoholism commonly passes down that propensity to the children. parents with anger problems too. Etc. etc. It happens all the time. Children change some as they get older, but they just do inherit a ton from their parents. Sin is one of those things, for those that don't choose God as their Father. For if God is our Father, we inherit from Him, just as we might otherwise inherit from earthly parents. Everyone on Earth has the ability to choose eternal life. Quote:
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So the entire story of salvation was immediately revealed to humanity, through human prophecy, in the very beginning of the Creation of the world. But the fullness of that story revealed in the sons of Adam and Eve is the story of the entire human race, beginning to end. Why Jesus chose to fulfill this master scheme for humanity when he did in history is a bit over my head to know. It is written in the Scripture that he came at exactly the right time, but I don't know precisely why this is so. God knows much more than me, though. Quote:
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Okay .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-06-2008 at 10:22 PM. |
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10-06-2008, 11:01 PM | #283 |
Elven Maiden
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,309
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Thanks for the reply, Lief. I think I'm going to drop out at this point, because I don't think I can continue debating about a history that I only know the general framework of. I'll think about taking another history class and add some books to my reading list. In the mean time, I suppose there's nothing to do but continue worshiping Love. Same difference right?
In the meantime, one more thing I'd like to hear your thoughts on. Why Earth? Why are humans so special in the wide universe? What the whole universe meant for us? What's your take on human-centricity? |
10-07-2008, 12:04 AM | #284 |
Elf Lord
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My view is that the universe, and all that is in it, including humans, are made to bring glory to God, Love. It's not all about man. It's all about God. Humans are made to live love, and animals are made as an expression of God's love, and so are the angels, and all the heavens and Earth. All of this brings glory to Love, and Creation is all about Love, the quick Spirit of God.
Aside from all the sheer beauty of the universe, which reflects God's character on its own, there are many specific parallels visible. Here are a few. Life on Planet Earth (according to modern scientific theory) began in a deep sea cave, just as Jesus was born in a cave (according to Catholic Tradition), and life on Earth came from the deep sea cave in the waters onto Earth just as Christ came from the dark of his mother's womb and from amniotic fluid into the physical world. Life on Earth started as single celled organisms, just as Jesus did in the womb. Life on Earth evolved into rational life, just as the child Jesus grew from a simple zygote to an adult. The order of creation represents the fulfillment of all creation, the Incarnation Himself. Just a few parallels I discovered recently, which interest me . But you can probably see how we might think the universe reveals the glory of God. The Earth rotates around the Sun as the soul submits itself to the Lord. The Sun brings life to the surface of the world, as God does to the soul. Jesus said, "I am the light of the world," as the sun brings glory to God by symbolizing our Lord. When Jesus came to Earth, he taught people by making examples from his Creation repeatedly. It is very beautiful and intimate, how Creation finds its fulfillment in Incarnate Love. The Catholic Church's history, as it happens, also has walked out up to this point a large portion of Jesus' life as it is reported in the Gospels. That's my view . Everything, the Church, Creation, all the species, and the entire universe exist to bring glory to God, and they do it splendidly.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-07-2008 at 12:09 AM. |
10-07-2008, 12:12 AM | #285 |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Hmm. I'm considering starting a thread to talk about religions other than Christianity. I've tried to put some stuff into this thread, but it's really become the "Christianity" thread, not the "theology" thread. . .
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
10-07-2008, 01:57 AM | #286 | ||
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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If your Christian God created the Universe, then who created him.. Quote:
Among the billions of species that have existed and exist on Earth, only one possesses a fully rational mind. Your analogy doesn't work. Conclusion: We all exist for the pleasure of a God... How fulfilling
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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10-07-2008, 02:30 AM | #287 |
Elf Lord
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The purpose of your comments and questions, Coffeehouse, appears to me to be neither the expansion of your knowledge of our beliefs, nor thoughtful analysis of whether or not they are true. Rather, your purpose only appears to be to attack, mock and deride. So I don't see much point in taking the effort of making a reply.
On another topic, though, I've been longing for a long time to pray for you privately, but you asked me not to, so I've respected your wishes. Would you please permit me to, though? It nags me and irritates me badly under my skin to choke down prayers that for months my heart has been yearning to release. How can it hurt you, anyway? Curufin, I think that people just bring what and who they are to any conversation. It's hard to help that. So when you bring up your religious views in conversation with a devout Christian, you're likely to get responses that reflect a Christian worldview. If you brought your views up to a non-Christian, you'd get whatever worldview he/she possesses returning to you. I don't mean to squelch you at all.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-07-2008 at 02:33 AM. |
10-07-2008, 02:59 AM | #288 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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When you write the stuff you write, some very weak (I'm being kind) analogies between evolutionary science which rests on decades of thorough research and some highly opinionated resemblences to a freak birth that has only been documented in your Bible, you should expect some pretty straight-forward, simple answers. Why? Because there's not much to debunk, it's pretty easy to do it! That said Lief, in a post where you describe me as doing: "attack, mock and deride", I did nothing of the kind. Mate, I gave you four clear points 1. I pointed out how ironic it is that you on one side marvel at the beauty of the Universe (I agree with you!), yet you fail to see that the path which led us to the understanding we now have of it and the technology we use to watch it, are incompatible with what you have previously derided as unfortunate, nay, evil developments due to the Enligthenment, and which furthermore are developments in science that were ridiculed and attempted to purge by your Catholic Church. I find that ironic, but I don't judge you for it. 2. My second point was: Who created your Christian God? 3. The third point was straight-forward: We don't know in fact how life first evolved. There are competing theories, and that doesn't really work for your analogy in my view. 4. The 4th point is educational: You write quite wrongly, or should I say misleadingly, that "Life on Earth evolved into rational life". Of course, nothing of the sort happened. The development of living organisms has led to one species obtaining rational thought, while billions of other species can't be said to have that. You can spend your time however you want, but frankly I find it just a little creepy that you want to pray for me. All I can say is: Let it be. Release the ignorance. Open your mind. There's hope for you too
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 10-07-2008 at 04:07 AM. |
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10-07-2008, 04:14 AM | #289 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I'm afraid it'll likely be merged into this one. We've been trying to contain all religious discussion to this thread instead of all over the board like it has been at times in the past.
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We are not things. |
10-07-2008, 05:49 AM | #290 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
So, let me clarify: At this point in time, I do not see any reason to believe in the existence of Jesus as the Messiah. However, I am not about to say that he could never possibly have existed just because there's no evidence that has convinced me yet. Let's just say I'm of a scientific mind. And at that, I feel like I need to stop posting in this thread... everything just makes me so angry... why can't some people just accept that others don't have the same beliefs that they do? I stated my opinion and I got shot down for it. I don't need a million Christian scholars telling me why I'm wrong, I need them saying "Oh, that's an interesting opinion, but this is how we view it in terms of my beliefs." It is only with this kind of open-mindedness that we can ever come to any kind of constructive debate about anything, and quite frankly I haven't seen much of that here in the past few days... So, I take my leave of this thread, don't bother to reply to this message or any others of mine. You've made me feel very proud to be an agnostic.
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"Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind." |
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10-07-2008, 06:01 AM | #291 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Let me explain a theory.
Like all the theories it has a few assumptions, ie, existence of a Babel Fish. A Babel Fish, let us assume can be anything mind-bogglingly useful throughout this universe. Now let us say that God exists and argues, "I refuse to prove that I exist, because, proof denies faith and without faith Im nothing." Now the question is, could a Babel Fish, which is ever so useful, have existed or evolved purely by chance? No right? So its the final proof that God exists.Hence by his own arguments he does not. This, ladies and gentlemen is the Babel Fish Theory, by Douglas Adams as explained in H2G2. My Norwegian friends must be familiar with this name. It also happens to be the name of a band. Thats about my opinion. Not that God does not exist, but it hardly matters, unless Im stranded on an island and have got another engineer for company . Cheers Ilfirin Disclaimer: With a pinch of salt my friends. Mighty serious discussions throughout the thread!
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You live and learn.At any rate you live. "C'est la vie", say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell. Last edited by Ilfirin : 10-07-2008 at 06:12 AM. |
10-07-2008, 07:39 AM | #292 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Don't let the religious intolerance get to you! In any case, I like your way of making your points. It's persuasive I'm sort of tired of the circular logic in this thread too.. go back a few pages (don't do it) and you'll see why! *Ilfirin, interesting post!, are you Norwegian?*
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 10-07-2008 at 07:41 AM. |
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10-07-2008, 09:07 AM | #293 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Keep struggling!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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10-07-2008, 02:24 PM | #294 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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No, the Gentile believers did not have to be circumcised. The circumcision was part of the old covenant, which is generally considered to be rendered obsolete by the new covenant, in the Christian mind.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-07-2008, 02:29 PM | #295 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-07-2008, 02:31 PM | #296 |
Elf Lord
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Empress Flynn, I want to apologize for being so rude in my final post to you. It was hostile and I was wrong to attack you as I did.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-07-2008 at 02:36 PM. |
10-07-2008, 03:10 PM | #297 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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No, it's not silly, at least from a non-religious point of view. Every religion may have myths of the very first gods' birth or the start of the universe. But everything has to start somewhere, everything has to come into being somehow, whether it's in a big bang or a wimpy whisper. I won't argue whether it indicates an misunderstanding on the concept of the Christian God, but that doesn't make it a silly question.
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We are not things. |
10-07-2008, 03:19 PM | #298 |
Quasi Evil
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Was actually going to play the devils advocate on that one myself before I saw this post. An original creator implies just that. That they are the first and beyond the barriers of time. They are the alpha and the omega and the concept of there being existance before their existance does not work. As a non christian I have no problem with this logic. Remember, even if there is no god or creator than what was there before there was anything? Same conundrum. But just chalk it up to us being creatures OF this universe and because of that we must abide by its limitations of time and space. So we cant think outside these linear, time defined, dimensional mathematics and the idea of a being that has always been and will always be does not compute for us.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 10-07-2008 at 03:20 PM. |
10-07-2008, 03:25 PM | #299 | ||
Elf Lord
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That's the dilemma facing non-religious people. The main way to answer it and maintain a non-religious worldview is to just say, "We don't know yet. Maybe something new will come up."
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-07-2008, 04:16 PM | #300 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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The beauty of the question of the origin of the Universe in scientific study is that they are working as always, to figure out the basic building blocks, trying to get as close to an answer as possible. They may not find the ultimate theorized answer, which can be shown to work. Yet there are answers out there, and there are intelligent theories asking questions. Moreover, astronomers have already moved beyond "linear" and "time defined" mathematics. But why should they move beyond dimensions? You don't move beyond it, you expand on it. In fact there are those who theorize about the possibility of not 3, not 4, but 9 dimensions. It's so mind-boggling that no one yet understands fully how this would work, but there is work on it, there is progress (even if it leads to a dead end!) This is part of many competing sets of theories inside the greater String theory. One very important catalyst to the evolution of String theory has been the improved undertanding of what a black hole constitutes. Black holes, understood to stand centre-stage in all galaxies that exist, are truly fascinating. They possess properties that truly does appear as being both the alpha and omega. I'd rather follow the progress of the brilliant minds working on these problems than subscribe to some God being behind it all, which would mean that God is imperfect since Evil thus must have grown out of his existence.. Doesn't really compute with the Christian view of God. An irreconcilable problem I'm glad I don't have to defend! That's my prerogative!
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