Theism

[Nariel Starfire]

I did not say the the Apostle John misinterpreted what he saw. I said he interpreted it to the best of his mortal mental abilities.
Did you ever watch Star Trek? I think this is the best analogy I can make:
When Q takes humans to the Q Continuum, what they see is not exactly what is there. It is interpreted so that their mortal minds can understand it.
So also is Revelation interpreted so that we in our restricted world could understand it. Had God given John the ability to see Heaven and the events taking place therein, he would have written it in such a way that no one else could possibly comprehend it.

I never said time doesn't exist in Purgatory and Paradise. Then again, I never said it does. To God "A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day." You asked if they exist. I gave some popular beliefs. By the way, I don't believe in Purgatory. I do, however, believe in Paradise. I never said they had to wait in a sense of time. To them, it might have been immediately that they were transferred into heaven, and yet it may have lasted three thousand years. I think the main thing to remember is that we, in our 4-dimensional mind can not comprehend life without time.

Remember Melkor? Eru created Melkor as just another one of the Vala. Melkor had the same abilities as Manwe. He was created for good, but used his choice to bring evil. The same with Satan. God created Lucifer as an angel. In fact, he was the most beautiful of the angels, and he was the leader of them. But then he said to himself, "I shall be like unto God." His pride was his downfall and therefore he must be punished. The Bible says Hell was created for Satan and his followers.

[Earenya]

First of all it must be recognized that there are literalists and non- literalists when it comes to interpretting the Bible. Some school of thought represents the direct fundamentalist truth that word-for-word the Bible is exact truth; and others that support the thought that the Bible was written over hundreds of years by many different people for different ages of peoples, and view its interpretation more liberally.
You can find support for almost any thought in the world in the Bible. Jewish tradition is that Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are "Moses' books"; which is a very hard concept to swallow seeing that they were written over more than one mans lifetime- unless you believe that the ancients really did live to be 600 years old. Were Adam and Eve the only two people "first" created- where did their sons' wives come from? And is slavery morally right, because it is supported in the Old Testament? Also, their are seperate books commonly referred to as the Apocrypha that are left out of Protestant Bibles. What of these verses?
Revelation was written in a time where Christianity was the underground movement, the taboo of its age. Code/symbolism is not incredulous to think of in that light.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Earenya
Revelation was written in a time where Christianity was the underground movement, the taboo of its age. Code/symbolism is not incredulous to think of in that light.

What did Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed have in common? They were all revolutionaries. What happens after the revolution is over? Power struggles among the factions divide the followers and corrupt the original message to suit the need to consolidate power. Sunnis and shiites, protestestants and catholics, etc. What is the conventional solution? Kill the non-believers. If you take a sieve to the holy books of the world you may get a reasonable set of morals to live by, if you have the sense to weed out the morally repugnant parts. But if you don't, then you end up as an intolerant bigot. As I look at the world today the distribution of those religionists who know right from wrong is not a very good one. If look at the middle east problem and see it as a hopeful sign that you will be "raptured" soon, you are not getting it. I'll be waiting for the next messiah to straighten everybody out before I feel anything but disappointed by religions.
Viva la revolucion!

[Arathorn]

I respect your generalization.

[Andúril]

There may not actually be a throne in Heaven, that may just have been the way John the Apostle's mortal mind interpreted what he saw.

I did not say the the Apostle John misinterpreted what he saw. I said he interpreted it to the best of his mortal mental abilities.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that while there may not be a throne in Heaven, John definitely did not misinterpret what he saw. But as you can see from verse four, a throne was mentioned. So, if John did not misinterpret what he saw, then a throne must exist in Heaven. Otherwise, your only other option is that the "vision" that John sourced this passage from was innacurate. Therefore, he saw an innaccurate picture, but interpreted what he saw correctly. But more problems arise from this.

If John had an inaccurate vision, then God is non-omnipotent, therefore does not exist by definition. An inaccurate vision would have other implications, in that it would mistakenly lead people to take his vision as truth, if they already believe that almighty and perfect God was the divine inspiration behind these visions. If God was perfectly powerful, he would have 1) taken any person, whether clever or absent-minded, 2) ensured that the vision seen was absolutely accurate, 3) ensured that the interpretation of the vision was absolutely accurate, 4) ensured that the transfer from mind to paper was absolutely accurate, and 5) ensured that all those who read his book would be able to understand it with absolute accuracy. Take your pick. It is clear that, if your theory about the throne not existing has any truthfulness, one or more of those requirements have not been met.

Interestingly, what has happened to John's free will? Did John have the choice as to whether he would be the instrument of God's will? No, God chose John to experience the vision. God's power, as claimed is infinite. Thus John was never in a position to choose to either be or not be the instrument. He was just not given a choice. He had no free-will.

The same goes for all the other biblical authors, and all those who have ever claimed the God has worked through them in some way or another.

Had God given John the ability to see Heaven and the events taking place therein, he would have written it in such a way that no one else could possibly comprehend it.

Another example of God's non-omnipotence. If God really wanted to, he would have ensured that John would relate his experience in a way that was perfectly understandable. But he just was not omnipotent enough, I guess. Or maybe he just didn't want to? Any reasons for that?

To God "A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day."

A day and a thousand years are measures of time.

You asked if they exist. I gave some popular beliefs.

It was once a popular belief that Earth was flat. Popular belief does not imply truth.

I never said they had to wait in a sense of time. To them, it might have been immediately that they were transferred into heaven, and yet it may have lasted three thousand years.

Can someone wait without time? How is that possible? If they were transferred immediately they would not have waited; there would have been no time.

He was created for good, but used his choice to bring evil.

Actually (and perhaps Nolendil or someone else could back me up here), Melkor was created by Iluvatar with the same purpose as the other Ainur, and everything besides - to fulfill that fate of Iluvatar's will:

'For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself that not imagined.'

Melkor may have thought that he was beyond the bounds of Iluvatars will (cause and effect), but he was not - he was merely a part of it.

God created Lucifer as an angel. In fact, he was the most beautiful of the angels, and he was the leader of them. But then he said to himself, "I shall be like unto God." His pride was his downfall and therefore he must be punished. The Bible says Hell was created for Satan and his followers.

Unfortunately, this does not tell anyone why he created Satan. I will ask again: Why did God create Satan, who's existence would lead to the necessary existence of Hell?

Also, how sure are you that this fallen angel's name is Lucifer?

Revelation was written in a time where Christianity was the underground movement, the taboo of its age. Code/symbolism is not incredulous to think of in that light.

What would be the need of codes and symbolism? Especially if God knew that one day, Christianity would not be taboo anymore?

[BeardofPants]

"Religion (emulation of adults by the child) encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity."
-- Bene Gesserit Credo

Chapterhouse Dune.

[Earenya]

Excellent quote.

[Arathorn]

Not to mention exquisite Sci-Fi.

[afro-elf]

BOP is the Kwisat Hederach

can i be your duncan idaho?

[Arathorn]

I think Tater is the Kwisatz Haderach because he is male. She is more like a pretty Reverend Mother , Duncan 'A-E' Idaho.

In any case, I am but a lowly Naib.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by afro-elf
BOP is the Kwisat Hederach

can i be your duncan idaho?

Sure! Do you have any superpowers (apart from a being devastatingly attractive mentat)?

Arathorn: Just because the first Kwisatz Haderach was male, doesn't mean the next isn't going to be female... it could even have been Sheeana.

[Arathorn]

BoP: Forgive this headstrong Fremen for being presumptuous. My knowledge of the B.G. is limited only up to the Ways of the Weirding and of your power to change the waters of life.

[BeardofPants]

All is forgiven, Arathorn of Sietch Tabr. (Damn, I didn't get to use my Prana Bindu on him... )

[BeardofPants]

"These are illusions of popular history which a successful religion must promote: Evil men never prosper; only the brave deserve the fair; honesty is the best policy; actions speak louder than words; virtue always triumphs; a good deed is its own reward; any bad human can be reformed; religious talismans protect one from demon possession; only females understand the ancient mysteries; the rich are doomed to unhappiness."
- From the Instruction Manual: Missionaria Protectiva

Children of Dune.

[BeardofPants]

"Humans are born with a susceptibility to that most persistent and debilitating disease of intellect: self-deception. The best of all possible worlds and the worst get their dramatic coloration from it. As nearly as we can determine, there is no natural immunity. Constant alertness is required." - The Coda Chapterhouse: Dune

[Arathorn]

Once again, excellent quotes from exquisite Sci-Fi.

[BeardofPants]

Thomas Jefferson

The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three-headed monster; cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three-headed beast- like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.

Author Unknown

The scientist yearns to find and eventually know the truth; the religious man wants the truth to fit his preconceived mold. So, as a result... The scientist alters his perception to conform to the facts; The religious man tries to change the facts to conform to his beliefs.

Hungarian Proverb

The believer is happy; the doubter is wise.

Abraham Lincoln

My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.

Friedrich Nietzsche

In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.

Friedrich Nietzsche

Belief means not wanting to know what is true.

Albert Einstein

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.

Clarence Darrow

I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose.

Jethro Tull

Man made God in his own image.

James Morrow

Some people think it's profound to say that science doesn't have all the answers. They're wrong. Science does have all the answers --we just don't have all the science.

Mark Twain (on the bible)

A mass of fables and traditions, mere mythology.

Dr Pepper

Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeeezing one's eyes shut and wailing "does not!".

Frederick Douglass, escaped slave

I assert most unhesitatingly, that the religion of the South is a mere covering for the most horrid crimes - a justifier of the most appalling barbarity, a sanctifier of the most hateful frauds, and a dark shelter under which the darkest, foulest, grossest, and most infernal deeds of slaveholders find the strongest protection. Were I to be again reduced to the chains of slavery, next to that enslavement, I should regard being the slave of a religious master the greatest calamity that could befall me ... I .. hate the corrupt, slaveholding, women- whipping, cradle-plundering, partial and hypocritical Christianity of this land.

Stephen Ban

Citing the Bible as evidence for anything is like saying that the sun is in fact a chariot of fire that races across the sky because we read about it in Greek mythology.

Thomas Edison

All Bibles are man-made.

George Bernard Shaw

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.

Napolean Bonaparte

I am surrounded by priests who repeat incessantly that their kingdom is not of this world, and yet they lay their hands on everything they can get.

Douglas Adams

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

Hypatia (Alexandrian mathematician, murdered by a Christian mob in 415 CE)

To rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force.

Bertrand Russell(1872-1970)

Sin is geographical.

Hippocrates

Men think epilepsy divine, merely because they do not under- stand it. But if they called everything divine which they do not understand, why, there would be no end of divine things.

Gandhi

The most heinous and the most cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives.

Kenneth V. Lanning, Supervisory Special Agent at the Behavioral Science Institution and Research Unit of the FBI Academy

The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement, but few can argue with it.

Catholic Church's decision against Galileo

The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both philosophically and theologically false, and at the least an error of faith.

Hippocrates

Where prayer, amulets and incantations work it is only a manifestation of the patient's belief.

Anonymous

RELIGIOUS ACCUSATION: Atheism is a religion! ATHEIST REPLY: Like baldness is a hair colour?

[Arathorn]

That was quite a read BoP. Thanks for the quotes. My beliefs have become clearer. Please note that the following responses do not reflect the beliefs of other people. They are my own.


Thomas Jefferson
quote:
The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three-headed monster; cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of
this raging, three-headed beast- like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of
the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.

*An opinion which anyone may choose to agree with or not.


Author Unknown
quote:
The scientist yearns to find and eventually know the truth; the religious man wants the truth to fit his preconceived mold. So, as a result... The
scientist alters his perception to conform to the facts; The religious man tries to change
the facts to conform to his beliefs.

*I agree with this quote. I don't know about the other theists, but for readily observable phenomena, I would say I am a scientist. But for
those with which convincing observations/experiments to disprove my beliefs (which are rather personal) have not been made/formulated, I tend to be a religious; open-minded theist.


Hungarian Proverb
quote:
The believer is happy; the doubter is wise.

*An observation which I tend to agree with. I think I am happy with that answer; though I doubt you should want to disagree with me except for
the sake of wanting to disagree.


Abraham Lincoln
quote:
My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.

*Good for him.


Friedrich Nietzsche
quote:
In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.

*Again, another opinion which anyone may choose to agree with or not


Friedrich Nietzsche
quote:
Belief means not wanting to know what is true.

* The same can be said of disbelief.


Albert Einstein
quote:
I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.

*The above quote, I am not sure if I agree with; but I happen to do so with the following quote 'Science without religion is lame, religion
without science is blind.'


Clarence Darrow
quote:
I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose.

*I respect that belief.


Jethro Tull
quote:
Man made God in his own image.

*I believe that man only saw God in his own image; whether by God's design or by man's limited assumptions. I have yet to find out the truth; and hopefully not gnashing my teeth when I do.


James Morrow
quote:
Some people think it's profound to say that science doesn't have all the answers. They're wrong. Science does have all the answers --we just
don't have all the science.

*Very insightful. I also think that it is impossible to ever have all the science; since more questions than answers are almost always
produced. But trudge on, we must. It's in our nature.


Mark Twain (on the bible)
quote:
A mass of fables and traditions, mere mythology.

*By someone who doesn't know who Mr Twain is nor his real name, a similar statement may be said of his works. The above is another quote
of an opinion which I am happy to learn of.


Dr Pepper
quote:
Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a
fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the
explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeeezing one's
eyes shut and wailing "does not!".

*OK. I think I would equate creationism by the above definition with fundamentalists which take every biblical sentence literally.


Frederick Douglass, escaped slave
quote:
I assert most unhesitatingly, that the religion of the South is a mere covering for the most horrid crimes - a justifier of the most appalling
barbarity, a sanctifier of the most hateful frauds, and a dark shelter under which
the darkest, foulest, grossest, and most infernal deeds of slaveholders find the strongest protection. Were I to be again reduced to the chains of slavery, next to that enslavement, I should regard being the slave of a
religious master the greatest calamity that could befall me ... I .. hate the corrupt, slaveholding, women- whipping, cradle-plundering, partial and
hypocritical Christianity of this land.

*Yes. It is said that it has been abused by men to seize money and power. They will get theirs, eventually.


Stephen Ban
quote:
Citing the Bible as evidence for anything is like saying that the sun is in fact a chariot of fire that races across the sky because we read
about it in Greek mythology.

*If taken literally, yes.


Thomas Edison
quote:
All Bibles are man-made.

*Yes. Probably.


George Bernard Shaw
quote:
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.

*That is why I believe in moderation.


Napolean Bonaparte
quote:
I am surrounded by priests who repeat incessantly that their kingdom is not of this world, and yet they lay their hands on everything they can
get.

*I guess they take after him.


Douglas Adams
quote:
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

*One ought to take a look, nontheless, if one has an inquiring mind.


Hypatia (Alexandrian mathematician, murdered by a Christian mob in 415
CE)
quote:
To rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force.

*Yes. Those malicious men of the robe will get theirs eventually. They are not immune from God's wrath.


Bertrand Russell(1872-1970)
quote:
Sin is geographical.

*Of course, if you miss your target, you sin.


Hippocrates
quote:
Men think epilepsy divine, merely because they do not under- stand it. But if they called everything divine which they do not understand, why,
there would be no end of divine things.

*Thus our need to try to keep on understanding things.


Gandhi
quote:
The most heinous and the most cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives.

*Yup! Thus, we must be careful of certain people.


Kenneth V. Lanning, Supervisory Special Agent at the Behavioral Science Institution and Research Unit of the FBI Academy
quote:
The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been
committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement, but few can argue with it.

*Satan is a deceiver. He will not readily have himself proclaimed while he is at his wiles.


Catholic Church's decision against Galileo
quote:
The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor
immovable, but moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both
philosophically and theologically false, and at the least an error of
faith.

*An error by the Church's human component which was hasty in its decisions to support one observer over another and which I do not believe to be totally infallible. But that's just me.


Hippocrates
quote:
Where prayer, amulets and incantations work it is only a manifestation of the patient's belief.

*I am inclined to believe that the mind may have a role in making one's body respond better to treatment. That is all I can say which is related
to the above statement.


Anonymous
quote:
RELIGIOUS ACCUSATION: Atheism is a religion! ATHEIST REPLY: Like baldness is a hair colour?

*You could also say: baldness is a hairstyle.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Arathorn
Bertrand Russell(1872-1970)
quote:
Sin is geographical.

*Of course, if you miss your target, you sin.

Very good answers there. No teeth gnashing for you, mister! A point though, the sinning is geographical quote is referring to the inherent euro-centric notion of biblicism. It is not refering to missing the target, and sinning, but rather that all those nations (hence geographic) encountered in the new world and beyond, had their own religion, and were 'primitives' and hence, sinning.

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


Very good answers there. No teeth gnashing for you, mister! A point though, the sinning is geographical quote is referring to the inherent euro-centric notion of biblicism. It is not refering to missing the target, and sinning, but rather that all those nations (hence geographic) encountered in the new world and beyond, had their own religion, and were 'primitives' and hence, sinning.

I see. I was wondering how deep a context to go so I just took the literal for that one. But I do think that had my country not had "300 yrs of the convent and 50 yrs of Hollywood" I might not have been Christian now; but then again, I'm not complaining.

I also think that it is geographical for souls with bodies which are geographically located. For someone who believes in a soul and that it is liberated upon death, the universal definition of sin will be revealed (but only after one dies).

I still believe in a higher power and that my consciousness will go on after I die; that there's just a lot of bickering going on about the details. All will be revealed in due time, I guess. I'm such a sucker for closure; especially after my Dad died 10 yrs ago.