U.S. election races...

[The Gaffer]

Wouldn't it be difficult for a US citizen to make that pledge who didn't share your faith?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

something THEY want to change!

Like inserting protection against flag burning makes Republicans all warm and fussy about amending a Constitution that couldn't include the ERA.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Wouldn't it be difficult for a US citizen to make that pledge who didn't share your faith?

to exclude people.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Wouldn't it be difficult for a US citizen to make that pledge who didn't share your faith?

Are you saying only christians can believe in God? God, for many different people, can be defined in other ways...

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Like inserting protection against flag burning makes Republicans all warm and fussy about amending a Constitution that couldn't include the ERA.

Not always so, a lot of conservatives would say that flag burning, however despicable, should be protected free speech. Scalia thinks so, and liberals think he's the devil.

A lot of times it's just an issue where politicians can look patriotic by condemning it. And condemning it is fine with me too...

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

to exclude people.

You know, there is alwaysgoing to be SOMEONE that is excluded, there is really no way around it. I'm sure you aren't about to ask China to be more inclusive to democratic capitalists when they sing THEIR anthem....

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

We're talking about the US Pledge of Allegiance, and, factually, "Under God" was inserted during a time when the purpose was to exclude 'Godless Communists". You may think it's an improvement to affirm America's reliance on God, but this business about China is completely unrelated.

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

You know, there is alwaysgoing to be SOMEONE that is excluded, there is really no way around it. I'm sure you aren't about to ask China to be more inclusive to democratic capitalists when they sing THEIR anthem....

lol. Bad form.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Not always so, a lot of conservatives would say that flag burning, however despicable, should be protected free speech. Scalia thinks so, and liberals think he's the devil.

A lot of times it's just an issue where politicians can look patriotic by condemning it. And condemning it is fine with me too...

Scalia's POV is part of why the Constitutional amendment is under consideration, as that would specifically define it separately from free speech.

And I agree about the politicians. Politicians on both sides have these routines they run about things they have no intention of taking action on, usually, in my experience, when they want to distract you from where they're spending money.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Wouldn't it be difficult for a US citizen to make that pledge who didn't share your faith?

"God" is not theologically defined in the pledge. And even if it was I don't see how anyone would really have a problem with it, its a tradition out of culture. I'm sure you British have the same sort of thing. In court you say "so help me God" when you take the stand right? No one gets offended at that.

[The Gaffer]

In UK courts you can opt to make a secular oath. However, our national anthem, appalling dirge that it is, starts "God save our gracious Queen". The difference here is that we have an established Church, with the Head of State also being the Head of the Church. Again, slightly ironic in that the UK is far less religious than the supposedly disestablished (non-established?) US.

I think it's a little disingenuous to claim that "under God" could refer to any monotheist religion in the Abrahamic tradition .

Tradition and culture, fine, I can go along with, much in the same way that I'm not bothered about our national anthem. Though tradition and culture would also give a pretty clear steer about which g/God is being referred to in the pledge, right?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Though tradition and culture would also give a pretty clear steer about which g/God is being referred to in the pledge, right?

A touch, a touch, a definite touch!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm but I thought it was pretty interesting, about the pledge. I DID know that it was essentially Socialist in inspiration, though.

As happened to the Bible, later interpreters may have changed the meaning. *ducks and runs, chortling*

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

In UK courts you can opt to make a secular oath. However, our national anthem, appalling dirge that it is, starts "God save our gracious Queen". The difference here is that we have an established Church, with the Head of State also being the Head of the Church. Again, slightly ironic in that the UK is far less religious than the supposedly disestablished (non-established?) US.

Ironic yes, but hardly justifying your godlessness

I think it's a little disingenuous to claim that "under God" could refer to any monotheist religion in the Abrahamic tradition .

Well, maybe so...but it's kinda like the "moment of silence" thing, you can pray, hope*, or just shut your mouth

*(I was about to leave that at "hop"..."Pray, hop, and shut your mouth.")

Tradition and culture, fine, I can go along with, much in the same way that I'm not bothered about our national anthem. Though tradition and culture would also give a pretty clear steer about which g/God is being referred to in the pledge, right?

Well, I suppose so...

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

We're talking about the US Pledge of Allegiance, and, factually, "Under God" was inserted during a time when the purpose was to exclude 'Godless Communists". You may think it's an improvement to affirm America's reliance on God, but this business about China is completely unrelated.

lol. Bad form.

It's not unrelated, I'm just trying to say that you can't please everyone, and pleasing an atheist is, historically, hard to do

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

"God" is not theologically defined in the pledge. And even if it was I don't see how anyone would really have a problem with it, its a tradition out of culture. I'm sure you British have the same sort of thing. In court you say "so help me God" when you take the stand right? No one gets offended at that.

Well put RTR...

And another thing, cultural traditions have to start somewhere, may as well put "God" in the pledge and keep him in there.
Besides, it'll be fun to tell our kids the story of how "Under God" made it's way into our Pledge because Jo McCarthy thought everyone was a communist...

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Wouldn't it be difficult for a US citizen to make that pledge who didn't share your faith?

Citizens don't have to say the pledge, and some of them just don't say the "under God" part.

The Declaration of Independence contains references to God :shrug: It's just a fact that that's part of who we are as a country, both in the past and now. If enough people here want the "under God" phrase out, then that will be who we are as a country and it will come out.

from the Declaration of Independence
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

[The Gaffer]

Oh OK, I thought kids did it in school and that. So what/when's it for? Naturalisation?

I suppose I would feel a bit left out if it was me that had to say it. Mind you, I think the concept of allegiance to a country is a bit weird anyway and probably wouldn't say it at all!

oo-er, I can feel a new thread coming...

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

to say in school. And they have, traditionally. (If you can call a tradition something with such a short history).

But, although there was a challenge under the old wording about pledging allegiance to anything other than God, which was dismissed at Supreme court level, another challenge, after Congress included it as part of the Flag code, during WWII, support the rights of students to refuse to say it.

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

Since the addition of Under God during the McCarthy Era, it's been losing ground as a public ceremony. So, something that was supposed to provide an inclusive focus for citizens is undermined, because it actually is used as an instrument of orthodoxy.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I suppose I would feel a bit left out if it was me that had to say it. Mind you, I think the concept of allegiance to a country is a bit weird anyway and probably wouldn't say it at all!

oo-er, I can feel a new thread coming...

Actually, I've always felt a little weird pledging allegiance myself...In fact, I don't think I've ever recited the whole thing...

Interesting FACT:not all patriots wear American Flag jogging pants...

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

to say in school. And they have, traditionally. (If you can call a tradition something with such a short history).

I thought I already covered this..., see above post[s].

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Actually, I've always felt a little weird pledging allegiance myself...

Glad to hear it. It's always struck me as kind of fetishistic, fascist-lite type thing. We have a similar thing with standing for the national anthem. For refusing to do so I nearly got my head kicked in once. Mind you, it was in an army mess hall at the end of a rather drunken evening, which on reflection wasn't the most sensible place to exercise my freedom of action...

[hectorberlioz]

Well, I wasn't raised to fling up my hands everytime I got excited, I've always held my beautiful facial features in-check for the most part. And my literal non-singing mouth.

[The Gaffer]

Hey man, are you sure you're not British?