Polictical Correctness

[Lizra]

Scary!

[Blackheart]

It's true...

When I was in the military I had Drill Sergeants begging me ... well not begging, more like demanding that I give them pointers on how to talk with a southern accent. They all wanted to culture one, because they felt that the accent had the most psychological impact on recruits when they used it to dress someone down...

The really good ones had it down to an art already... never an expletive, just a steady stream of derogatory comments delivered in a loud southern accent... It was awesome to behold...

[Lizra]

Hey! 1000 posts! Nice round #. Yes, southern accents can be scary, because it's hard to tell when they are dripping with sarcasm.....but I do prefer the politeness, things proceed more smoothly with politeness, so...I'll take PC over no PC...it's better, imo.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Well now... Just remember, not everyone in georgia is a republican...

I'm certainly not. But due to the way the elected officials have gerrymandered the districts, and the fact that they have consistantly opposed splitting the electoral vote, my vote counts for exctly = 0. Nada. Zip.

So - what does that ave to do with political correctness. Not everyone in NJ is democrat.

If the Redskins football team were owned by lakota or some other tribe, it would be ok. As it is, that's just false advertising... Not a single American Indian/aborigine/redman among the owners...

Someone should sue them... for false advertising.

Why is that? They never make a claim that the owners are indian. It's named for the natives of Washington State.

As for politness... it's different a bit down South. Few people would ever call us politically correct...
but we do strive to be polite, at least to your face. It's more of a friction avoiding thing. People have been, and are, shot for being rude... I myself find it interesting, but I have witnessed it on several occasions... I think it's because insults just sound so much nastier in a southern accent....

One of the reasons why I don't really care for the south or the midwest - the phony politeness. The "oh how you doing it's so good to see you." and then the moment you turn your back - the kinifge is in it or they're making comments to the person they had been talking to about you. I'd rather take honesty over false friendship and kindness. At least you know where you stand with people in the northeast. There isn't any question if someone doesn't like you and what their feelings are.

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Unfortunately, the definition doesn't fit with the application. That's the problem.

It's one thing to say "Try not to make people feel bad with what you say". It's another thing to say "It's allright for X, but not for Y". Which is what happens. Even in the definition you put forth, it involves a form of prejudice (favoring the 'socially disadvantaged) - it wasn't a very large step from there to using PCness to prevent anything which dissagrees with or could be considered a criticism of certain parties.

Censoring public mentions of Christmas, for example (since it's already been brought up), would certainly seem to 'marginalize' christians. Why is it ok to censor Christians, but not Muslims? Simply put, it's not.

Wayfarer, I still don't see any example of what you mean. In the cases you mentioned some people tried to make things generic. It would be impossible to marginalize 75% of the population, which is how many people have indicated a Christian sect on their census form. Although, since only 40% of that 75% also say they attend services regularly, I guess that equates to only 30% who are church-goers. But even if half the people who don't go to church are believers, rather than just culturally inclined to associate with a group, that is still a massive majority. Hard to imagine anyone could marginalize a majority.

A small minority of people, including my wife by the way, want to remove the phrase that Eisenhower added to the Pledge. It doesn't bother me, but like most liberals, if I think it bothers someone else, I will stop and listen to their case. I told one of my daughters who says she is Wiccan that she should say Under Goddess or just don't say those two words. I've always felt that if, for instance, someone's anthem bothers you, you should write a better one.

But if a thousand people start insulting ten people, THEN I get angry. That's not something I would feel proud to be a part of. Ten people insulting a thousand is just a pack of fools.

I'm not convinced that the majority is being persecuted. I don't think that is possible. I think the majority want politically correct documents that include everybody. But the few and the loud claim to speak for the many and what they really want is a special privilege to be rude. If what they have to say is true, they should be able say it without hurting other people.

[Elfhelm]

or more simply...

I do not believe there is anyone in America who would object to you putting a manger scene on your lawn, but the vast majority of Americans do not believe you have the right to force someone else to put Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays in his shop window.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

So - what does that ave to do with political correctness. Not everyone in NJ is democrat.

Everyone assumes that because you're from Georgia, you must be a Republican. I didn't say it had anything to do with PC. It comes from not wanting to be misidentified...

Why is that? They never make a claim that the owners are indian. It's named for the natives of Washington State.

You mean what claim do they have to the name of Redskins? Maybe they should treat it like internet domains.
Just because they were the first to trademark the name doesn't mean that they have an ironclad claim on it... trademarks can be overturned. By naming the team after "redskins" they are in fact claiming to be associated in some shape form or fashion to native peoples, as you pointed out. But I doubt they're paying any royalties to them on the name.

Besides, Professional sports are a load of utter crap anyway. If someone wants to give them money, go right ahead, but I have no desire to watch any professional sports or buy any products endorsed by professional players. My personal opinion of course, but I'm pretty set on the idea that team mania is bad for society as a whole...

One of the reasons why I don't really care for the south or the midwest - the phony politeness.... oh how you doing it's so good to see you." and then the moment you turn your back - the kinifge is in it or they're making comments to the person they had been talking to about you.

That's where you're wrong. If you think someone is being polite to you because they like you, you're sadly deluded. No, it's because they're treating you with a modicum of respect. I can easily tell someone I don't like them, that I think they are wrong, misguided, lying, whatever I think, politely. If I really give a crap about them. Otherwise why bother. I say hello, how are you doing, and goodbye.

I'd rather take honesty over false friendship and kindness. At least you know where you stand with people in the northeast. There isn't any question if someone doesn't like you and what their feelings are.

Once you learn the subtleties of polite behavior, you don't need to wonder whether someone likes you or not, or where you stand with someone. Sometimes it's all to clear. But being rude to someone obviously means something different to people in the south. If someone wants to get rude, then that's just as good as tossing a punch, in all too many situations. (It's actually codified in legal terms as 'fighting words' and is an acceptable defense in assault cases) Escalation happens pretty rapidly after that.... Murder capitol of the US and all that.. sigh.

There's nothing worse than a redneck with a hangover, unless it's a redneck with a hangover and a gun....

No thanks, I'd rather leave the situation indeterminate unless I really have some compelling reason for wanting to know the person. I've only had to pull a pistol on someone once this entire year (road rage incident during a stupid college football game - some dumb ass football fan trying to beat the crap out of a little old man and his wife with a baseball bat, because they cut him off, then the old man gave him the finger.) and I'd rather not repeat the situation. Last year it was three times. And I don't live in a large city, it's actually pretty rural. Fortunately in every situtaion so far the presence of possible death has restored everyone's manners... and a modicum of common sense. I just hope that it stays that way.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

It would be impossible to marginalize 75% of the population, which is how many people have indicated a Christian sect on their census form.

It's not impossible, just extremely unlikely.

But it's not a large majority of christians, it's a smaller sect of evangelical christians who feel threatened. And with some reason. Political power in this country is weilded by vocal minorities with vocal lawyers and legislators. If there was another minority as vocal as the evangelical religious right, then you might actually see some verifiable persecution. Those people are annoying...

Which puts moderate christians in an uncomfortable position. On the one hand, there's nutty uncle Pat screaming about the damned atheistic homosexual communists that are taking over the country, and on the other hand everyone else is lumping them in with the fanatics. Probably a bit like moderate muslims feel about being lumped in with islamic fanatics, or jews who get questioned about Isreali politics, but less acute.

But it's not outside the realm of possibility that you'd see a backlash against christians by a well organized, vocal minority. I would actually posit that you are seeing the beginings of such a backlash in the current "culture wars" as the media seems to be so fond of labeling it. I don't expect it will go that far... indeed I doubt it will go far enough. But no, it's not outside the realm of possibility...

I do not believe there is anyone in America who would object to you putting a manger scene on your lawn...

Err.. Actually there are a few people who do object, but fortunately they aren't in a vocal minority. But just try to hold a black sabbath on your front lawn and jeez.. the neighbors get all freaked out...

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Definition of Political Correctness: avoidance of expressions or actions that can be perceived to exclude or marginalize or insult people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.

That's it, no more, no less. It is about avoiding expressions or actions that could make a person feel uncomfortable through marginalisation, etc. It's that freakin' simple.

exactly... it's about respecting one another... and let's remember, it's not a law to be PC... you can say just about whatever you like to whoever you like at any point in time

that said, it is something you should observe for it's own sake... respect everyone because it is a good way to relate with fellow human beings... choosing to not respect someone just because they do not respect you is only going to cause more tension

[inked]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

And just to give a POV from someone who could be potentially "disadvantaged", as some of you know, I have a genetic hearing disability, which means that I can not hear without the aid of hearing devices, and am disadvantaged in some social interactions, as well as using simple instruments like the felly-tone (). If some stranger were to come up to me and start making fun of my disability, I wouldn't like it at all - goes without saying, right? Well, it doesn't occur to some people that jokes like this would make me uncomfortable. And it doesn't even have to be jokes - certain situations can make me feel marginalised. Thus, I feel it is important to spread an awareness through whatever means that certain kinds of behaviour could be construed as marginalising to some people, regardless of ethnicity, sex, species, colour, whatever.

As far as the "minority" bit goes, well, if an individual feels marginalised or uncomfortable (and it doesn't matter what colour they are), then clearly something is VERY wrong. I understand what you are saying with regards to some PC-movements being discriminatory/hypocritical, and I agree with you.

But BoP, do you feel that no comedian should make fun of the deaf or the hard of hearing or the in any way afflicted? I doubt it. I rather suspect that you make a great deal of fun at your own expense (I vaguely recall the potent powers attributed to BoP piss for instance ). And, literarily, since this post was a revelation to me of an unsuspected problem, you remind me of the heroine in CHILDREN OF A LESSER GOD who was at no disadvantage in communication by her deafness! YOU really must see that flick if you have not had the pleasure - give me your review.

The difference here is intent not words. Politeness is courtesy. PC avoidance of any term that any one could possibly be offended by is mind control and WILL VARY WITH THE POLITICS IN POWER. What was deemed PC in NAZI Germany is hardly considered PC in AMERICA or NZ today, right?Just remember that no matter how delightfully pleasant and vapid one's conversation and deportment may be, persons who think they know everything are offensive to those of us who DO!

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I had to drag this thread becuase of this ridiculous political correctness in certain california school. They wish to ignore American History.
[edit]Of course this whole thing will depend on how he's teaching it - if he is preaching to the students - then only that crosses the line - teaching our nation's history does not. [/edit]

JD, as to the question of HOW he's teaching it that you mentioned, here are letters to the editor of the Cupertino Courier. They are from parents and other teachers at the school.
http://www.cupertinocourier.com/cu-letters2.shtml

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

JD, as to the question of HOW he's teaching it that you mentioned, here are letters to the editor of the Cupertino Courier. They are from parents and other teachers at the school.
http://www.cupertinocourier.com/cu-letters2.shtml

So - what does that show? That the principal has support - I kne the principal had support. So does the KKK and they will write letters defending the blatant misrepresentation of themselves in the media - would you believe them? If not - then why are you so willing to believe these letters?

[jerseydevil]

Blackheart you obviously have no understanding of difference between politeness and PCness. If I don't like someone - I'm not going to say ANYTHING to them - I'm not going to be rude either. But I have known you to be rude and obnoxious on this board - so don't play the "I'm from the south - we know how to be polite" - I've known everyone on this board to be rude at times.

[Blackheart]

Oh I know how to be rude yes. What does that have to do with knowing when to be polite, and when to be rude. Or did you think I meant that there was never a time to be rude?

But I think that is exactly the difference in outlook. I'm not going to ignore someone. That's just rude. If I'm ignoring someone, I'm doing it on purpose to BE rude...

If it's so obvious that I don't know the difference between being PC and polite, then why don't you just explain the difference in simple rational and understandable terms.

Perhaps I'll learn that refering to someone by a racial or ethnic slur is in fact polite, even though it isn't PC.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

It's the Jersey Devil. It's a legend - my name is taken from that. Not JERSEY and the only time you seem to call me Jersey is during arguments where you want to be condescending.

that’s because we are generally arguing. We only agree on so much you know. You make a logical mistake by assuming since im arguing with you most of the time that whatever I call you must be intended as an insult. The fact of the matter is I tend to call people by their screen names (and generally by the first word in their screen name if its more then one word). That’s how Ive been for years. I never use initials. Seems hokey to me. And in your case I couldn’t POSSIBLY use initials…

I also refer to you as “Jersey” when Im talking to people in private. And you certainly aren’t there to be insulted by it are you? Its just the name I have for you. It makes perfect logical sense to me. Saying “Well Jerseydevil…” seems stupid. So I shortened it to Jersey. Its like a first name basis to me. If anything that shows familiarity. Again, I would have no problem if you were to call me Insidious since its my self given name. And now really, which of those two names would be more likely to be mistaken as “condescending” do you think…

make it easy on yourself and call me JD like everyone else

um… no chance. Lets just say theres someone else in my life that goes by “JD” and calling you their name would be the equivalent you calling me “Sweet Cheeks”.

Just an example on why I don't think you use "Jersey" really as a name for me - but as a way of acting condescending.

Don’t be silly. I have plenty of other ways to be condescending to you.

By the way - the state - you might not realize this - is NEW Jersey. For certain things we do shorten it for - like The Jersey Devil or the Jersey Shore - but for the state - it's NEW Jersey.

so… you want that I should call you “New” then?

There are many people who use Jersey in a deragatory way and your demostration of your use of it has indicated that you use it in the same way. I'm proud to be a NEW Jerseyan. I just don't like it when people use the name to be condescending.

do I need to put a qualifier every time I talk to you then? *PLEASE NOTE: the use of the term “Jersey” is in no way meant as derogatory or maligning language and users of said phrase will not be held liable for any perceived injury or defamation. If you want to perceive that I use the term as in insult that’s your problem. I don’t. if I want to insult you ill do it directly.

Ok whose finding this whole conversation as ironic as I am… I believe we have switched roles on the PC issue…

[edit] Bobby or Robby for the same reason - they're generally used condescendingly.[/edit][/QUOTE]

huh?? Man yer picky as all get out aren’t you. Since when are Bobby or Robby such insulting terms?

[Ragnarok]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

And when has anyone not at one time or another felt uncomfortable through marginilasation? No matter what frigging definition is - Politcal Correctness is one the most stupid thing the liberal party has come up with.

Ok before you go bashing a novel idea, how about considering rational thinking? I think calling the liberal party stupid for the idea of PC is an asinine statement to make. May I remind you that anything used to an extreme can cause problems. If you drink too much water you will get water poisoning and will have to go to the hospital, does that make water bad? Its the people who take PC to the extreme that causes such problems, not the idea itself.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok

Ok before you go bashing a novel idea, how about considering rational thinking? I think calling the liberal party stupid for the idea of PC is an asinine statement to make. May I remind you that anything used to an extreme can cause problems. If you drink too much water you will get water poisoning and will have to go to the hospital, does that make water bad? Its the people who take PC to the extreme that causes such problems, not the idea itself.

you mean everything isn't just black and white??

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

If the Redskins football team were owned by lakota or some other tribe, it would be ok. As it is, that's just false advertising... Not a single American Indian/aborigine/redman among the owners...

Someone should sue them... for false advertising.

Well the original owner was an avowed racist and segregationist. He called his brand of football "state rights football" during the civil rights era. He even once said "We'll start signing Negroes when the Harlem Globetrotters start signing whites." And he stuck to that. In 1961, the Redskins were the only remaining team in professional football without a black player. Kennedy's secretary of state had to actually lean on Marshall (the owner) heavily before the team was finally desegregated. He also hated Jews and other minorities by the way. So you can be assured that when he chose the name "Redskin" it wasnt because he had great reverence for Native Americans.

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

So - what does that show? That the principal has support - I kne the principal had support. So does the KKK and they will write letters defending the blatant misrepresentation of themselves in the media - would you believe them? If not - then why are you so willing to believe these letters?

Why are you willing to believe a digruntled employee instead of the people who have known her and worked with her for years? What right do we have to crucify her in the press? Why not let the jury decide instead of Sean Hannity? I sure wouldn't want to go on trial with Sean as the judge, jury, and executioner! Would you?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Oh I know how to be rude yes. What does that have to do with knowing when to be polite, and when to be rude. Or did you think I meant that there was never a time to be rude?

But I think that is exactly the difference in outlook. I'm not going to ignore someone. That's just rude. If I'm ignoring someone, I'm doing it on purpose to BE rude...

I'm not talking about if they acknowledged me and ignoring them - I won't have much to say - and I won't put on fake niceties though. But I won't go up to them and say "Oh - how's it going - good to see you. I'm glad you were able to come" - when I can't stand the person. You can think whatever you like - but I'm not going to pretend to like someone when I don't.

If it's so obvious that I don't know the difference between being PC and polite, then why don't you just explain the difference in simple rational and understandable terms.

Perhaps I'll learn that refering to someone by a racial or ethnic slur is in fact polite, even though it isn't PC.

You explain to me what's rude about wishing someone a Merry Christmas? Or ignoring our own history because it has god in it? Or what about the forcing LA to take off the cross out of it's slogan - even though the city name is "The Angels"? What does this have to do with being polite? How is midget a ethnic slur - you now have to say "little people". I'm sure with the PC movement - someday that will be unPC too. This is all a result of ridiculous PCness.