10-20-2002, 05:38 PM | #281 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Damn, too much quoting! Final section I promise
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Finally, and if it's one thing that annoys me, it's Frodo and the damn ring. I reckon if you bumped into him on the streets he'd be like: 'Hi, I'm Frodo. Here, do you want this ring?' He tries to give it away every available opportunity. Combine that with people refusing, and / or touching it and returning it, we have a ring that must smell terrible or something, everyone is so desperate to keep away from it. Oh, and of course at the rate he's going, Frodo will have used up more lives than a cat by the end of it. What you need to understand BB, is not that one is better than the other (since direct comparisons are almost impossible given the amount the story has changed under PJ's guidance), but that film requires a vastly different approach to book. Things get compressed, things get expanded, things just change completely. PJ has given us some astounding visuals to accompany the book, and I reckon many of us will find it hard to read the book in future without seeing Elijah, or PJ's Moria etc. He's given us a great action / adventure film with some truly deep moments. Certainly by normal cinema fair, it's an epic. Compared to the book though, the film is like a beautiful girl's slut sister. Easier to get into, but ultimately less satisfying |
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10-20-2002, 07:26 PM | #282 | |
Elf Lord
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Re: Peter Jackson has improved Tolkien
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PJ improved Tolkien’s work?, now that IS funny.
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10-20-2002, 07:41 PM | #283 | ||
Elf Lord
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Too much good Gerbil food to munch on all at once. But here's a start:
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10-20-2002, 08:10 PM | #284 | ||
Elf Lord
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10-20-2002, 08:51 PM | #285 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Regardless of Tom's external origins (Aragorn after all was originally Trotter the hobbit) he reminds us-and the hobbits that they are part of the unfolding drama and mythos that Tolkien spent over 50 years creating. He's not just "an accidental remnant" because Tolkien didn't go for accidental remants. He wrote the fall of Gondolin in 1916 in a trench and it never saw the light of day for over 65 years-and even then it was never put into a narrative. Tolkien's creation were linked to his life (beren and luthien being an excellent example) but to say it was just sentimentality doesn't seem to fit the meticulous way Tolkien dealt with content.
And Gerbil I agree about Aragorn-everything else I don't mind-it was necessary for the page to screen transformation. But why Aragorn (he's 90 by the way) former general of Gondor, servant of the King of Rohan, a man who tramped through Rhun and Harad-who walked through the Morgul vale, who was probably deeper in counsel with Gandalf (who I think is well done, with the exception of that travesty of a council, it displays how Gandalf has done a good job of making himself human) then almost anyone, is supposed to be doubtful about his path in life after a lifetime of hard labor is beyond me.
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10-20-2002, 09:00 PM | #286 | |
protector of orphaned rabbits
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and thank you for finally explaining your self! your not half bad now that your calm!
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10-20-2002, 09:37 PM | #287 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Well, It about time. I've been waiting since this thread began for BB to post his opinions in some logical order so congratulations are in order. If you are comparing the two strictly on storyline, which is all they have in commo.n The idea that any visuals are "cool" is irrelevant unless you have not imagination and cannot picture scenes and people from text descriptions. Pretty colors do not mean improvement unless you are lazy.
On T.B.: His ommission was correct because of the need to compress times and spaces for the movie format. This isn't an improvement unless you like less story. His part is as interesting as any, and critical to the "safe havens" concept in the book that is absent in the movie. Again, less is not more. On ferry: Stupid hobbits out-running a horse. So unbelievable it distracts the viewer. On Rivendell: Another place that needed cutting, only for screenplay purposes. The changes were a bit pointless except to fullfill a need to make the cast more seem cute and cuddly. On character changes: Aragorn is less magical, less "obscured nobility"; becoming more like Boromir. This is not an improvement. He is the representative of the Numenorean line, not a handy swordsman. Boromir is not more rounded unless you count a personality as a pointy thing. Frodo, on of the most beloved characters in literature improved and more well rounded? That is amusing. Maybe Tiny Tim should be taller and play a fidlle. All the charaters in the movie have less dimesions to them and are made more similar to each other. The idea that they are from different and distinct cultures is lost in the movie. On Moria: A nice adaptation of a brilliant storyline. A few silly moments on the bridge at Khazad-dum don't detract much from an otherwise well portrayed sequence. So why wasn't the rest of the scenes done with this accuracy? On The Breaking of the Fellowship: Better? N-O. All of your other questions regarding book 1 are addressed in a previous post you have yet to address. When I complete re-reading book 2 while watching the movie several times I will post the response. The bottom line is that all your examples have one common theme; namely that simpler versions of the story appeal to you. This is somewhat contradicted by your statements regarding the extended version (is more better or less?). Simplicity is woderful for piqueing the interest of young or newly initiated readers. Film versions of Great Expectations have not diminished the reading of the book. Great books always outlive the film versions, because the film media caters to simplicity and popular trends. Truely great books exceed the capacity of mivoes because the reader gets to use life experiences combined with imagination to create a "version" that suites their views, while the movie becomes trapped in the past. Even the beloved Wizard of Oz looks shopworn. I always laugh when I see the string on the lion's tale. I will also always laugh at Frodo outrunning the horse.
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10-20-2002, 10:00 PM | #288 | |
Elf Lord
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Errrrm..... sorry. I'll get my coat. PS Wow - 555 posts! Five sixths of the sign of the (mini) beast! Last edited by Gerbil : 10-20-2002 at 10:02 PM. |
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10-20-2002, 10:05 PM | #289 |
Elf Lord
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Any healthy person could outrun a horse over a short distance and with a head start.
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Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!! |
10-20-2002, 10:10 PM | #290 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I'm still laughing.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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10-20-2002, 10:27 PM | #291 | |
Elf Lord
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Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!! |
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10-20-2002, 11:16 PM | #292 |
Elf Lord
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This is all assuming that the distance Frodo and Co are spotted is very close to the ford. The scene plays out to me as if Merry goes 'Righto - let's all toddle off to Buckleberry Ferry what-o', and 10 seconds later they are found by Mr Tanned. A few seconds of turning around to confuse the poor horse, and then a few feet away is a fence hiding the ferry. If you take this as the situation then what you see is possible (since yes, technically a human can outrun a horse over very short distances - it has 2 less legs to sort out).
Bit jammy that they were only spotted (in dense undergrowth) just next to the ferry. You might say this makes sense since the Blag Wider was 'guarding' the natural crossing point of the river, but if that was the case then why didnt the rider simply guard the ferry itself? However you look at it, Frodo was a wee bit too lucky. Oh well, I suppose you can argue the same is true of the books (eg they set off from Hobbiton literally only just missing a Black rider). Just one of those thing I suppose. |
10-20-2002, 11:42 PM | #293 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Nice try though
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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10-21-2002, 12:30 AM | #294 | ||||
Hobbit
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Re: Re: Questions for BB
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What does "well rounded" mean? I have heard it often used, but poorly defined. Also, what is "more human?" Thanks for being patient with me. Ideas are wonderful things. |
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10-21-2002, 09:32 AM | #295 | ||
Elf Lord
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Re: Re: Re: Questions for BB
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Some of you are now doing the same thing with PJ's movie that critics have loved to do to Tolkien's books. You obsess over silly non-issues like the running speed of a hobbit or harp about how utterly ridiculous it would be for an heir of Numenorian Kings to know where to locate Numenorian swords to give to the hobbits within the ruins of an old Numenorian fortress. It all illustrates one of my points: You are watching the film through book-colored eyes rather than enjoying it for the unique version of the story that is being told to you. All I've said is that some of Jackson's decisions in bringing the story to the big screen are not only clever but actually enhanced the storyline. Yet many of you are having great difficulty in admitting even ONE of Jackson's changes to the storyline was effective. If we are going to have a debate, let's at least try to be intellectually honest here. Quote:
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10-21-2002, 12:31 PM | #296 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions for BB
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The change to Boromir clouds the true nature of his character and it's relation to his father. They are both part of the same theme of the desire for power and it's corrupting influence. It was not just the power of the ring that corrupted Boromir. The movie makes him just a nice guy that got too close to the ring. How does that better represent this concept? The isn't a debate about changes made to the story that facilitate moving the story on to the screen. The consistent complaints have been with the unneccessary changes that water down the story. It would be intellectually dishonest for me to say that there was any change to the story by PJ that I preferred over JRRT. Tolkien was writing his story for the sake of the story. He never felt he needed to juice it up to sell more copies. No, that would have been intellectual dishonesty.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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10-21-2002, 12:51 PM | #297 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Questions for BB
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I can find critics who will tell you that no astronauts ever went to the moon. Gee, yeah I guess that is possible. Or just maybe they were trying to make a name for themselves. What were those names again? Oh, who cares.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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10-21-2002, 01:11 PM | #298 |
Elf Lord
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Ugh.
You've convinced me, BB. I now officially hate the movie. I used to feel it had some redeeming value, but upon examination of the various meandering arguments, I can't say I liked it enough to go see the rest of them. The same goes for the rest of this thread.
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10-21-2002, 01:40 PM | #299 | |
Elf Lord
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Re: Re: Re: Questions for BB
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Critics are hardly the most reliable of sources for commentary on something. Most are bitter and twisted failures at the subject they profess to critique To twist a saying slightly: 'Those who can, do. Those who can't, become critics'. Anyway, I can understand that you (BB) mentioned such things to show that you aren't in fact merely a 'read LotR once' kind of guy but have done more research into it, which is good. However, I would suggest you need to keep reading (and form your own opinions, not merely align yourself with the critics), because some of your 'knowledge' of Tolkien and his works are second-hand, and more often than not, wrong or innaccurate. I would say: Keep delving into his works! Not to prove us wrong, but because exploring it more is it's own reward Ah well. I particularly enjoy the fact that many of those who love the film but prefer the book are prepared to leave it at that, and let you have your own opinion, yet you seem determined to prove us all wrong. The fact the thread has continued is simply due to there being many many more people who share our view than yours. I am sure in your own mind this only makes you more right You are entitled to your view, we are entitled to ours. That some of us have clearly and definatively proved some of your points wrong, while you have refuted none of our claims (while scathingly pointing out us getting worked up over issues YOU raised initially) shows you will not accept you are wrong. More to the point, you won't even accept that differences of opinions may exist. I am sure you will continue your 'martyr, misunderstood' stance that in your own mind proves you are right, but for most of us, you've simply not proved your case. Having said that, I'd like you to note that we have not even disagreed with all your points explicitly (eg TB not in the film - it 'works'), merely that we aren't necessarily of the opinion it IMPROVES on anything. PJ at best complements Tolkien perfectly. Which is how it should be - none of us ever really wanted to see a wildly different version from the book. It's not even about Tolkien's work being perfect (it is not), it's simply about someone taking a piece of work he professes to love like we all do, and changing it, OFTEN UNNECESSARILY, usually for the worse. |
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10-21-2002, 01:43 PM | #300 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 160
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I do think PJ inproved Tolkien on some things, but I think the work of Tolkien is much better than PJ's.
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