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Old 08-02-2002, 05:50 AM   #281
Earniel
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Ah, you beat me to it, Arathorn, I was going to bring up elephants too.

Having a foster elephant has provided me with a increased interest in elephants. They guard dead elephants for hours even for days and often the whole herd comes to sort of say goodbye. They can recognize bones and skulls of their relatives and they take great pains to examine them carefully. Most of the time they scatter the bones. So I think they know about dead and think about it. What they think about is off course impossible to know. Incidently they also have bigger brain.
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Old 08-02-2002, 06:19 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eärniel
Incidently they also have bigger brain.
Not to mention that they seem to remember all the personalities of all the people and elephants they've ever encountered and act differently to each.

This adds proof to the saying "An elephant never forgets".
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Old 08-02-2002, 06:27 AM   #283
Rána Eressëa
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Originally posted by Anduril
Why are humans so special? On a planet that sustains lifeforms, there will be some animals that are more intelligent than others, and there will be a most intelligent animal. You and I and the rest of us here just happen to be examples of the most intelligent creatures on the planet; the ones with the most complex brains. What is the big deal?

We think humans are special because we are humans. We think "Oh, humans are so great, just look how clever we are - no other animal is as clever as us...". But how "great" are we in other regards? Can we swim as fast as a dolphin? Can we fly? Can we run as fast as a cheetah? Can we beat a silverback gorilla in one-on-one weaponless combat? Are we really "special"?
That's one of the best ways to put it. What is it that makes us so "special"?
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Old 08-02-2002, 06:31 AM   #284
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arathorn
As someone who gets some of their info from the Nat Geog. Channel, I seem to remember features where they were observing how elephants seem to obsess about death as well. They have their own language based on infrasound (low frequencies which are often inaudible but can carry out many kilometers) and they seem to stop and examine bones of their dead a lot that it looks like they're performing rituals. They also crowd around a recently killed member of their herd and seem a bit more concerned than usual about any youngsters that elephant might have; sort of being more protective of it.
Let's drop the whole "death" thing for a while and skip back to religion on this.

Being that you're Catholic, do you think any other animals besides us have souls? Due to their actions; do elephants have souls? Can they enter Heaven or Hell? Basically, as a religious person, how can you really tell what has a soul and what doesn't?

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Old 08-02-2002, 06:43 AM   #285
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rána Eressëa


Let's drop the whole "death" thing for a while and skip back to religion on this.
Okay, we can change the topic - but how is this relevant to absolutism vs relativism? We seem to have gotten a bit OT here.
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Old 08-02-2002, 07:01 AM   #286
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rána Eressëa


Let's drop the whole "death" thing for a while and skip back to religion on this.

Being that you're Catholic, do you think any other animals besides us have souls? Due to their actions; do elephants have souls? Can they enter Heaven or Hell? Basically, as a religious person, how can you really tell what has a soul and what doesn't?
Oh, ok. the religion I'm in assumes that humans have a soul and that it goes into a state called heaven if the person performs close to what is deemed by the powers-that-be that it is deserving. It goes into a state of damnation if it has done something so abominable or so against what is decreed as according to the word and without remorse. It may also go into a state of temporary hell called purgatory if the person has performed something in between. All this happens after death and I believe tha I have to have faith that this happens since there is now way I can be sure until after.

With regards to animals, some people will tell you yes, some people will tell you no. My answer is a big I DON'T KNOW. Just as I don't know if my dog who's always running excitedly and slobbering my hands is happy to see me, putting on a roose but silently saying "Just you wait!" or simply reacting instinctively since I've been feeding or treating him well all these years. We don't share a language.

There are more than 70 million catholics in my country and a few more in the new nation called East Timor in Southeast Asia. That's a lot of different individuals with different views about their religion. You have zealots as well as liberals as well as slobs, murderers, adulterers, people you can get along and be friends with, people you'd not mind going to heaven or hell or wherever the moment you see em...

BTW, I'm only 60% pure according to a test in another thread.
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Old 08-02-2002, 09:00 AM   #287
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeardofPants
Okay, we can change the topic - but how is this relevant to absolutism vs relativism? We seem to have gotten a bit OT here.
Yeah, that was OT. Religion, however, is an absolute while people like us are relativists - so we can debate on that. Right?
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Old 08-02-2002, 09:04 AM   #288
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Well, I don't think even religion is absolute. It has some absolutist ideals I guess, but eh, completely absolute?
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Old 08-02-2002, 09:09 AM   #289
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Ahhhhh . . . not again!



I really hate clarifying myself, as you see.
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Old 08-02-2002, 10:55 AM   #290
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Negative.

Elephants are fairly well documented to have death rites now. There is a good chance they have a concept of death.

Simians also, especially the chimps, likely have a concept of personal death.

No evidence is in for cetaceans at this point.

The reason I bring this up is that many people seem to think that religions are based simply on a fear of death. While it might be interesting to speculate on bonabo spirituality and culture, I don't really see much potential there.

As for an absoute, there are only two absolutes that we can be certain of (using the court derived version of certitude, which actually means 90% certain) and that is zero and infinity.

Zero is a numerical singularity, and anyone interested in metaphysical concepts should do some reading on it. ( A simple text with interesting implications )

Infinity is somewhat the oposite idea of zero. ( Another twisty book )

Anything in between these two concepts is relative. That goes for ethics, morality, and even universal laws, such as gravity and electromagnetic phenomena. (Which is why alpha is such an interesting phenomenon, since it appears to be an actual absolute that has been caclulated).

So all this blather about religion being an absolute seems odd to me. All religions have transformation myths. If there's a transformation myth built into the structure, how can you call it absolute?
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Old 08-02-2002, 11:08 AM   #291
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rána Eressëa


That's one of the best ways to put it. What is it that makes us so "special"?
Re Humans's "specialness" it really rather simple.

"'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."- Mao Tse Tung

The reason we are special is because we have the power to directly impact almost every sphere of influence on the planet in a way no other life form has ever done before.

Coupled with our ability of (limited) foresight, this is a very frightening power. If we were insane enough, I have little doubt we could find a way to destroy all other species on the planet above the microscopic level. Maybe the microscopic also, given some advances in nanotechnology.

"If the radiance of a thousand suns
Were to burst at once into the sky
That would be like the splendor of the Mighty one ...
I am become Death,
The shatterer of Worlds." - Bhagavad-Gita

Does that make us special? Well, isn't that a relative perspective?
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Old 08-02-2002, 11:46 AM   #292
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rána Eressëa
Quick question. What do the Christians think about this: http://godlessamericans.org
God bless 'em.
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Old 08-02-2002, 11:49 AM   #293
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If you what to know how much we do know about the brain try subjects like

behavioral genetics, bio-psychology, socio-biololgy, neuro science,
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Old 08-02-2002, 12:42 PM   #294
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Quote:
The only species that even thinks about death is humans...Don't tell me you don't. Everyone has some part of their being that fears it...
I, on the otherhand, don't fear what it is to come after death.
Does anyone else find this amusing? Or is it just me?

Rogue elf, are you a humunculus trying to come out of the closet or something?

Quote:
God's wrath in the Bible, anyone?
A nescessary collory of god's goodness. Since he is good, he will not let evil go unpunished.

On the other hand... He asks "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?" "Am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" God wishes that humans should be made right, whatever the cost to us, whatever the cost to himself. It is only when humans refuse to be made right that they fall under judgement.

Quote:
God gives weak people comfort.
Quote:
God is the only comfort, He is also the supreme terror: the thing we most need and the thing we most want to hide from. He is our only possible ally, and we have made ourselves His enemies. Some talk as if meeting the gaze of absolute goodness would be fun. They need to think again. They are still only playing with religion. Goodness is either the great safety or the great danger--according the way you react to it. And we have reacted the wrong way.
CS Lewis.
Beyond that, you are far wrong. We turn to god only when we have tried and failed to make it on our own.

But even then we are not exempt from making our own effort. We are told "As much as it lies with you, live at peace with everyone else" "love they neighbor as theyself'

Quote:
do you think any other animals besides us have souls? Due to their actions; do elephants have souls? Can they enter Heaven or Hell? Basically, as a religious person, how can you really tell what has a soul and what doesn't?
More CS lewis(but he was speaking about aliens): "We don't have any way of knowing if they ever sinned, or if they did, whether they have not been redeemed in thier own way."

WE do speak of 'the lion laying down with the lamb" to illustrate the lack of conflict in heaven, so you could drw your own conclusions from that...

Quote:
many people seem to think that religions are based simply on a fear of death.
Lewis (again) comments that "almost the whole of christian theology could be derived from two facts: People make jokes about sex and they find the dead to be uncanny".

Why do we think humans are special? Because we are humans, and therefore pay the most attention to ourselves.
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Old 08-03-2002, 09:32 AM   #295
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wayfarer
[B]

Does anyone else find this amusing? Or is it just me?



Oh yes. Personally I prefer Absolut directly from the freezer.
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Old 08-03-2002, 01:17 PM   #296
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Quote:
Wayfarer:
A nescessary [sic] collory [sic] of god's goodness. Since he is good, he will not let evil go unpunished.
A necessary corollary? Non-sequitur. Wayfarer needs to show why his god will necessarily "not let evil go unpunished" if "he is good".

Hopefully he realizes that if God directly interferes in the "life-status" of a human being, i.e. kills or causes death, "free will" is negated. It is negated in that any particular human that suffers God's wrath is denied the option of continuing his/her physical existence.

It is unclear why, exactly, God chooses to exercise his wrath on some people, and not others. For instance, consider those who live their lives without belief in God, but who are not smitten prematurely. Indeed, their existence is supposed to continue in hell once their physical existence ceases, but what about those who are mentioned in the bible that suffer the consequences of their free will derived actions?

Eternity in hell. That's a long time. To add a couple years onto this punishment is, to me at least, foolish. And that is what God does, when his temper is lost and his fury unleashed. The idea of punishment on earth would surely be insignificant to an unimaginable degree, when compared to the spiritual punishment. Yet, God proceeded with this earthly punishment...

Wayfarer says that God will not let evil go unpunished. What does he mean by this "punishment"? Plagues (i.e. Ex 8:2...)? Genocide (i.e. 1 Sam 15:2-3...)? Or eternal torment (i.e. Rev 20:10...)?
Quote:
Continues:
It is only when humans refuse to be made right that they fall under judgement.
In other words, it is only when humans, through their use of God-given free will, choose not to worship God, that he gets pissed off, and fast-forwards their trip to hell, with a bit of intentional yet hardly significant suffering?

Of course, we are (oddly) presupposing that God's judgement is fair. How fair is it to punish the children of "sinners"? One would think that punishment be deserved by the recipient, but that is hardly the case when it comes to the migty Yahweh. Consider verses such as Ex 20:5 and Dt 5:9. That is justice?

And how about those that suffered the wrath of the jealous Hebrew war god upon birth? Have another look at 1 Sam 15:3. Infants are murdered, because, according to Wayfarer, they "refused to be made right". Surely he can't think this is the case? Whatever explanation he comes up with should make for entertaining reading.
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Old 08-05-2002, 09:55 PM   #297
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And I was worried I was going to have trouble catching up on this thread... ]: )

Quote:
Wayfarer needs to show why his God will necessarily "not let evil go unpunished" if "he is good".
Indeed I do, but first, we must be on the same page:
God's wrath is not the same as human anger. It is a continuing responce to a state of affairs in it's object. we might become angry, and later 'cool down'. God's wrath endures until the state of affairs it is agains has been fixed. Likewise, we might continue to be angry even if hte other trys to make amends. God immediatelyt put's it behind him, and makes things right.

God has chosen to give us free will, even though part of that involves the ability to choose evil. That is to say, humanity is given a choice between good and bad.

Now, God vehemently wants us to have what is best for us. That is to say, he desires our good (because he loves us). In fact, he wishes to make each of us perfect, he wants us to be in right relationship with hin and each other. And there is only one force in the universe with the ability to resist his making you good - You.

God's wrath is the reaction of his perfect goodness to our imperfections. Make no mistake-he wants you to be made right whatever the cost to himself or to you. But anyone who, through the abuse of free will, refuse to be made right is under his wrath.

Quote:
Hopefully he realizes that if God directly interferes in the "life-status" of a human being, i.e. kills or causes death, "free will" is negated.
You err, dear chap. We are give power to choose not the length of our lives, but what we do during that time. And what we do during our lives determines what happens after. Those who have sought god and allowed him to make them right will spend eternity with him, while those who have refused will spend it apart from him.

In any case, if I carry your argument to it's logical conclusion, then humans should not die except when they chose. Which is nonsense.

Quote:
It is unclear why, exactly, God chooses to exercise his wrath on some people, and not others. For instance, consider those who live their lives without belief in God, but who are not smitten prematurely. Indeed, their existence is supposed to continue in hell once their physical existence ceases, but what about those who are mentioned in the bible that suffer the consequences of their free will derived actions?
You unfortunately have the idea that god's wrath involves striking people dead. That is not the whole story.

First, as to premature deaths: Oh yeah. I can just see God sitting up in heaven, kicked back in his big La-Z-Boy, and saying "What? Wayfarer just wend and died on me! I can't believe it! I create him, I uphold him by my power, and the ungrateful scum goes and DIES on me!

What God does is allow us to live so that A. we might come to know him and be made right and B. That we may help others do the same. He wants us to A. during the time we are given, but I suppose that when one emphatically refuses he might cut their life short (although that's a poor way of saying it)

Quote:
The idea of punishment on earth would surely be insignificant to an unimaginable degree, when compared to the spiritual punishment. Yet, God proceeded with this earthly punishment...
Yes. If you still think of God's wrath in terms of human anger and punsiment. Which is completely incorrect.

I said before that God wanted to fix everything that's wrong with us. Well, we all know that pain is our indicator that something is wrong, don't we? God sends suffering, not as a prelude of hell, but in order to tell us that something's wrong, that we may turn to him and avoid hell.
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Old 08-06-2002, 07:46 AM   #298
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Quote:
Wayfarer:
Indeed I do, but first, we must be on the same page:
God's wrath is not the same as human anger. It is a continuing responce to a state of affairs in it's object. we might become angry, and later 'cool down'. God's wrath endures until the state of affairs it is agains has been fixed. Likewise, we might continue to be angry even if hte other trys to make amends. God immediatelyt put's it behind him, and makes things right.

God has chosen to give us free will, even though part of that involves the ability to choose evil. That is to say, humanity is given a choice between good and bad.

Now, God vehemently wants us to have what is best for us. That is to say, he desires our good (because he loves us). In fact, he wishes to make each of us perfect, he wants us to be in right relationship with hin and each other. And there is only one force in the universe with the ability to resist his making you good - You.

God's wrath is the reaction of his perfect goodness to our imperfections. Make no mistake-he wants you to be made right whatever the cost to himself or to you. But anyone who, through the abuse of free will, refuse to be made right is under his wrath.
I see a problem here. Wayfarer asserts in a round-about way that God's wrath - or "reaction to our imperfections" - is demanded by his "goodness". Let's see if these reactions are typical of what we commonly hold to be "good", first of all, and secondly, whether they actually bring about the result that they were intended to bring about.

Here is a small list of the God's "reactions", i.e. those murdered indirectly (divine orders) or directly:

Quote:
The entire population of the earth except for eight survivors (Genesis 7:23), every inhabitant of Sodom and Gomorrah except for one family (Genesis 19:24), every first born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29), all the hosts of the Pharaoh, including
the captains of 600 chariots (Exodus 14:27,28), Amalek and his people (Exodus 17:11,16), 3,000 Israelites (Exodus 32:27), 250 Levite princes who had challenged the leadership of Moses (Numbers 16:1-40), 14,700 Jews in a plague who had rebelled against Moses following the killing of the princes (Numbers 16:41-49), all the subjects of Og (Numbers 21:34, 35), 24,000 Israelites who lived with Moabite women (Numbers 25:4, 9) all the males, kings, and non-virgin females of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7, 8), the Ammonites (Deuteronomy 2:19-21), the Horims (Deuteronomy 2:22), all the citizens of Jericho, except for a prostitute and her family (Joshua 6), 12,000 citizens of Ai. Joshua hung the king on a tree (Joshua 8:1-30), all the people of
Makkedah (Joshua 10:28), all the people of Libnah (Joshua 10:29, 30), all the people of Gezer (Joshua 10:33), all the people of Lachish (Joshua 10:32), all the people of Eglon (Joshua 10:34, 35), all the people of Hebron (Joshua 10:36, 37), all the inhabitants of 1 of the country of the hills, and of, the south, and the vale, and of the springs and all their kings (Joshua 10:40), all 31 kings and inhabitants of their countries, and south country, and the land of Goshen, and the valley, and the plain, and the mountain of Israel, and the valley of the same from Mt. Halak to Mt. Hermon (Joshua 11:12, 16, 17, 12:24), 10,000 Moabites (Judges 3:29), 10,000 Perizzites and Canaanites (Judges 1:4), 600 Phillistines (Judges 3:31), all of Sisera (Judges 4:16), 120,000 Midianites (Judges 8:10), 25,100 Benjaminites (Judges 20:35), 50,070 people of Bethshemesh (I Samuel 6:19), all the Amalekites (I Samuel 15:3, 7), the armies and five kings of the Amorites (Amos 3:2), the Moabites and 22,000 Syrians (II Samuel 8:2, 5, 6, 14), 40,000 Syrian horsemen (II Samuel 10:18),
100,000 Syrian footmen, followed by 27,000 who are all crushed by a wall (I Kings 20:28, 29, 30), 42 children eaten by a bear (II Kings 2:23, 24), 185,000 Assyrians killed by an angel (II Kings 19:35), 10,000 Edomites, followed by 10,000 more whose killers brought them to the top of the rock, and cast them down from the top of the rock, that they were broken in pieces (II Chronicles 28), 120,000 Judeans (II Chronicles 28), 75,000 Persians (Esther 9:16).
Wayfarer has claimed that "...God vehemently wants us to have what is best for us." Of course, being eaten by a bear was the best for those 42 children in the same way that all the males, kings, and non-vrigin females of the Midianites were afforded what was best for them - destruction: I am not sure how destruction can be the best for someone. Wayfarer says additionaly that he (God) loves us - I am not sure how one can feel loved by being destroyed. Other intentions that I cannot comprehend as corollating with the above "reactions" is that of wishing "to make each of us perfect", wanting us "us to be in right relationship with hin and each other", or wanting us "to be made right whatever the cost to himself or to us."

Another problem is evident when Wayfarer says that God's wrath, or "reaction" is intended to make us perfect, yet that we are not perfect, and because of this, God's wrath is necessary. But, what good comes from God's wrath? People can not be "made perfect" by ordering their death - this is absurd. Unless, of course, lifelessness is equated with perfection, although I doubt that anyone here is willing to advocate this position.

Other issues include the question, "why is it that some non-Christians escape the wrath of God?" Surely God feels the same way about someone who did not believe in his existence 3000 years ago, as someone who does the same today? Yet, atheists, and other non-christians abound on this planet. Millions of these people have lived their lives to their "natural" ends, i.e. death brought about in any way other than direct or indirect destruction. Indeed, if one had to look at the way the lives of Christian's ended, in comparison with that of non-christians, one would find no difference (outside the bible). What is the reason for this inconsistency? Perhaps Wayfarer can enlighten us.

Yes, there must be an answer for why these non-Christians are left to live there lives without divine intervention. Why has God decided that for all of these people, he will not "react" on them? Wayfarer asserts that "God's wrath endures until the state of affairs it is agains has been fixed." This does not hold up in the light of the fact that there is a state of affairs currently in which not all humans believe in his existence. This was the state of affairs present in biblical times, and is still present. Yet God's wrath is no longer unleashed.
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We are give power to choose not the length of our lives, but what we do during that time.
Then you must admit that God does not afford all humans with free will. This is supported by the bible, in passages such as those where infants are killed as a result of divine command. When I say that those infants did not have free will, I mean it in such a way that they were not allowed to progress far enough in age in order to actually be able to exercise choice. Indeed, there are other passages in which unborn babies were killed, and what can be said for their free will?

Can one exercise a "choice between good and bad", as Wayfarer puts it, if one is a new-born or unborn baby? Ofcourse not. Yet Wayfarer holds that God reacts to "our imperfections", and that to choose evil, or bad, over good, is imperfection, and "abuse" of our free will. This is untrue when it comes to those who are too young to exercise or "abuse" their free will. But God will smite them nevertheless, because of who they were born to, and what those people did.
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And what we do during our lives determines what happens after.
Murdering infants does not allow those infants to grow up and do things during their lives in order to determine what happens after.
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Those who have sought god and allowed him to make them right will spend eternity with him, while those who have refused will spend it apart from him.
There is the underlying presupposition that those who "refuse God" in one part of their lives will continue to do so until their natural death. This is clearly not the case. We know of those who have been "born again" and those who "discarded their sinful ways and became believers, etc. Additionaly, these conversions occured in the bible. Now, one must see the utter inconsistency that is present in this issue. Those who were converted must have at one stage been non-believers. Why were they not smitten by God's fury? What reason did God have to allow those non-believers to live and one day join the flock?
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What God does is allow us to live so that A. we might come to know him and be made right and B. That we may help others do the same.
Unfortunately, he never gave those infants the same allowance. Further, even those of the smitten that were not infants, but grown men and women - did he allow them to "live so that they might come to know him and be made right"? Inconsistency.
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He wants us to A. during the time we are given, but I suppose that when one emphatically refuses he might cut their life short (although that's a poor way of saying it)
...Except that does not happen. I "emphatically refuse". Why am I not smitten? Why don't all non-believers have their lives cut short?
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Well, we all know that pain is our indicator that something is wrong, don't we? God sends suffering, not as a prelude of hell, but in order to tell us that something's wrong, that we may turn to him and avoid hell.
And what is death an indicator of? What does it indicate to those who suffer that?

Furthermore, perhaps Wayfarer might divulge the reasons behind the fact that some Christians suffer more than non-Christians.

Last edited by Andúril : 08-06-2002 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 08-06-2002, 10:46 AM   #299
Blackheart
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Guys.

What in the F__K does this have to do with absolutism? Or relativism?

Did someone slip up somewhere and state an absolute standard of good or evil, and now there's this huge definition going on?

An absolute standard doesn't need to be good or evil. It just needs to be infinite, and applicable in all situations.
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Old 08-06-2002, 05:26 PM   #300
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BH, you should know by know that all threads degenerate into theological debates. Even plastic surgery ones apparently.
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