02-04-2007, 09:54 AM | #281 |
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If the bible quotes are your only reason to deny gay marriage Gwai, I'm very unimpressed. (I know this doesn't matter to you ....just wanted to come on record with it though )
Bible thumpers have no proof their book is anything more than a bunch of fairy tales and parables from times long past.....all the different world religions have their sacred books of tales.....and to them all I say, "interesting...but seriously..... Whoopie Doo ." So with that being your only reason, it is quite obvious to me that homosexual mairriage should be legal. As someone already said recently "All the rest is Rubbish"......and this debate seems merely one of people with open minds arguing with those who wear prejudicial religious blinders.
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02-04-2007, 06:41 PM | #282 |
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Ooh, and Lizra comes out swinging.
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02-04-2007, 07:44 PM | #283 |
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Heh! Can't keep a swingbabe down.......
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02-04-2007, 08:44 PM | #284 | ||||||||||
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This is a continuation of post #280 (on the previous page). By the way, the play was great.
(I moved the Bible quotes to the middle of the post.) Quote:
The Bible is much more deep in meaning than can be derived from simply skimming the surface and taking everything literally. Taking everything literally is dangerous - if we do that, we'll get nutters who go around making idol worshippers drink molten gold. Not that Moses was nuts, necessarily, but that story is a metaphor that worshipping a statue instead of God has negative consequences. Those consequences are spiritual, represented by physical consequences in the story. Other stories in the Bible, which often describe historical people and events, serve to give context to the different messages in the Bible. The various anti-gay passages serve to point out what society was like at the time. It was totally unacceptable two-thousand years ago for someone to be gay. Women were second class citizens. Slavery was acceptable. Society, in fact, was very intolerant. That's why Jesus's message, once you have read some of the other passages in the Bible, is even more wonderful. Would Jesus tell a gay man that he should not defile himself with another man? No, he would invite that man over for dinner. Jesus was radical and liberal. He was a mover and changer of society. He wanted to make the world a better place for everyone, especially the people in the society in which he lived who were marginalised by those in power: women, tax collectors, people with disfiguring illnesses, poor people, and many others. Some of his Disciples really struggled with his radical ideas. It went against many of the values they had been taught all their lives. I think St. Paul struggled with his faith especially, which is why I respect him so much, even though I do disagree with him on some points like, IIRC, the role of women in marriage. In sum, I think that being against gay marriage because of the passages of the Bible that describe it extremely negatively defeats the entire purpose of the Bible, which is to teach us how to be good people and live in God's way. The Bible will continue to be relevant as long as we don't discount the time when it was written. Quote:
I read the back of the same book you did here. What I got from the book jacket is that this book is about how people have used the Bible to further hateful works. John Spong is not arguing that the Bible is sinful, that is actually completely opposite to his real argument. I don't think we should debate too heavily about a book that neither of us has actually read. Now for the quotes... Quote:
Now, I have a huge problem with this phrase: "26 For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature." The use of women? It is natural to use women? Or is it saying that it was the women who changed the behavious of the men? More clarification is needed. Quote:
Because then guys who act kind of girly (effeminate, I really hate this word), would not be allowed to marry either, even if they wanted to marry women. People who are greedy and wish they had stuff their neighbours and friends had (covetous)? Can't get married. Drunks? Can't get married. Railers, whoever they are, can't get married either. Does enforcing any of that make sense to you? Why just pick on the "liers with men" in this passage - simply because it's easier to exclude them in legal definitions? Quote:
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You could make it illegal for murders and people who have lied under oath to marry, because there is a legal record of this activity. Quote:
Happily, none of these events mean that gay people can't marry. Quote:
However, just because the Bible doesn't mean a lot to you doesn't mean that it doesn't mean a lot to everybody. There's nothing wrong with basing your world view on the basis that the Bible is true, even if you do misunderstand the parts about homosexuality. This means that some conclusions of this world view are incorrect, not that those who believe this world view are somehow morons. Got that from the tone of your post. It's great to see you around BTW.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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02-04-2007, 11:33 PM | #285 | |
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However, I do agree with your "deeper meaning". The bible represents the best of Abrahamic philosophy at the time it was written, and the Jesus story a degree of humanism that wasn't seen that much before it's time. Prior to that, very few religions had all that much respect for the individual, which is the main concept that really makes it unique. And you make a very good point about Corinthians 6:9-10 as well. In my mind, these restrictions are more the product of the all too human tendencies of control and conservatism. A co-opting of the message. Something I'd think any god would be far beyond.
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02-04-2007, 11:34 PM | #286 |
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Not morons....but imo, folks who are taking the easy way out.....And sure.....some of the broad events/places mentioned of the bible are considered historic fact, but the whole "word of god" thing is what I find ...well...nutty. Sorry, but I can't really think of a nicer way to describe it.
Oh! ...thanks Nurv!
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 02-04-2007 at 11:37 PM. |
02-04-2007, 11:47 PM | #287 |
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Railers are those who rail - or, via dictionary.com "utter bitter complaint or vehement denunciation."
We've got a lot of those who are married. Some of whom are that BECAUSE they are married
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02-05-2007, 02:53 AM | #288 | |||||||
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The fact that the Bible is the word of God is the basis of Christianity! It's not nutty, it's simply not something that makes sense to you. And that's cool too, there's a reason that the entire world isn't Christian; our beliefs don't make sense to everyone. But we didn't base a whole religion on something nutty, sheesh. Now, I personally don't think God provided the visions to the Bible's authors in order to write it, I think they wrote what they saw. Believing that God did provide visions to the author's is also not nutty, if that's what you were actually referring to. Logically, if God is capable of manifesting Himself in human form and sending his Son to Earth, then He is easily capable of giving fifty people visions of His message. Christians do believe the former since that's what makes us Christian, so the latter isn't a huge stretch. Quote:
The entire Bible obviously isn't historic, since like I said before there are many metaphors. Quote:
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God: Okay, I went to a lot of trouble to organise a book of useful metaphors for life and wonderful stories and teachings, but you guys are morons so here's the new Bible. To do: 1. Love each other 2. Love Jesus 3. Don't forget that I love you How hard is this, really? The next person who screws this up is getting smote.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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02-05-2007, 11:11 AM | #289 | |||||
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Traditional interpretations of the New Testament
More or less wind up at this, don't they, Nurvingiel?
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Matt 22-36 as in http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_22.htm 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets The sense I always had was that God said, "Okay. We've been through this bit with the law and the prophets. Frankly, I've gotten a lot of feedback that I'm grading on too hard a curve. And Heaven was really dull, with just the righteous of 12 tribes. So we're going to try opening it up, and we're going to symplify the rules. " Quote:
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02-05-2007, 11:27 AM | #290 |
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No, that Christ is God incarnate is the basis of Christianity.
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02-05-2007, 11:37 AM | #291 |
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Hmmm... methinks we have a thread for that discussion And also, pretty clearly I think people can disagree over what "the" basis of any religion is.
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02-05-2007, 11:47 AM | #292 | |
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Count Comfect
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02-05-2007, 03:08 PM | #293 |
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Theological Opinions II Kinda.
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02-05-2007, 08:24 PM | #294 | |||||||||
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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02-05-2007, 08:28 PM | #295 | |
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(it's fun to be nuts! o.O )
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02-06-2007, 05:49 AM | #296 | ||
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Hahaha. It's R*an! *tries to tackle* *misses*
Darn.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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02-06-2007, 04:09 PM | #297 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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But as you pointed out, neither of us has read it, so we can't say too much. Quote:
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As for the rest of what you are saying, the point is not that the text says they shouldn't get married, its that it says it is sinful. If you will look back, you see that my reason for these texts was that I said that the "prohibition on homosexuality" was found in the New Testament. I'm frankly very surprised that you all actually think I am arguing that all of these people shouldn't be married; how incredibly stupid you must think me.
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02-06-2007, 05:06 PM | #298 | ||
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responding to this quote: "The white elephant in the room is that the only real reason for denying homosexuals marriage is because the bible, by some interpretations, says so." Quote:
And since the verses you quoted prohibit not only homosexuality, but many other sins, I must in turn conclude that you think that those prohibitions are also barriers to marriage.
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02-06-2007, 08:01 PM | #299 | |||||||||||||||||||
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There's more than one way to be a good Catholic. Just because it isn't your way doesn't mean they aren't uncommitted or are false. Quote:
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I'm actually not sure if I believe some of the details. But the important thing is that something very wonderful happened. Do you think we should take this to the Theology thread? My beliefs around what is true in Christianity are veering away from this thread's subject. Quote:
Based on some of your past statements, don't you think you are also adopting a very narrow view of Christianity, that there is only one way to be a good Catholic and only one way to view the Bible? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Quote:
I wonder if Moses really did do something so horrible as to make people, including children, drink molten gold. I think this is another metaphor. Would you really worship a God who actually instructed His followers to do such cruel acts? But I think this part of the discussion should also go to Theology. Quote:
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Also, did you mean to have a comment on this? Quote:
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I would like to read it, but I'm going to leave my spiritual studies until later in life. Quote:
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Catamites = the bottom? Sorry, couldn't resist. Quote:
What I am saying, is that since you are arguing that gay people shouldn't be allowed based on Corinthians 6:9-10, I'm pointing out the inconsistency in not arguing that drunkers, idolaters and etc. can't marry. This argument is stupid, of course, but then why would this passage support your argument that gay people can't marry, if it doesn't support that the other people mentioned can't get married? I don't think this passage can be used to argue against gay marriage at all, because of that. Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 02-06-2007 at 08:02 PM. |
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02-10-2007, 06:31 PM | #300 | ||||||||||||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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It looks like you were going to write more there. Quote:
Christianity elevated the woman in many respects above the place she had in the pagan or Jewish worldview. Slavery...I just had a discussion in theology class about this. Let me just say that, while slavery is certainly a social evil, it is not the greatest social evil, so that it is wrong to take certain measures to eliminate it. Society was certainly intolerant in many ways, but Christianity is by no means representative of the society of the time. In fact, it radically departs from it. Quote:
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I don't think this passage can be used to argue against gay marriage at all, because of that.[/QUOTE]
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 02-10-2007 at 06:34 PM. |
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