Philosophy

[Butterbeer]

Hey cool, that's me.

no it isn't!

or do you not beleive in your own magnetic charms? That is to say you do not beleive the phsyiotherapist has lost out by being married?

choose Reverend- sex or nihilism??


Nurv- no of course Lief is not a nihilist- but it is wonderfully ironic that Nietzsche could argue that Lief is a nihilist.

More interesting though, are the reasons he might argue Lief was a nihilist.



Yes Nurv and Spock - in all seriousness Monty Python and philosophy share the same basic premises!

Kind of ... after all if this is a nihilist Parrot i 'ave in my hand here - can it be said to have ever beleived that it in any meaningful way it ever lived?

[Rev. Justin Timberlake]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Your rock RJT. Personally I think nihilism sounds a bit depressing, but to each his own.

To be a little more specific, I was an existential nihilist with a pseudo-conscience and half-hearted hedonism. Now I'm a subconcious nihilist with......well, still a quasi-conscience, but with randomly interchangeable ideals depending on a horribly muted form of intellectual or emotional hedonism, and that annoying nihilistic depression. I also like Chunky Peppermint Aeros.

[Butterbeer]

One of my earliest childhood memories - mint Aeros ... being carried on me dad's shoulders somewhere by the seaside in Wales - very sunny morning- though mostly i seem to remember the mint Aero ... though they were not in the bar form they are today ... i have gone off them though ...

am i too becoming a nihilist Doc?

[inked]

Originally Posted by Rev. Justin Timberlake

Agreed. Theology is a branch of philosophy; a segment of philosophical study.

To have a philosophy thread sans theistic philosophy is one thing. To say that theistic philosophy is not philosophy is another, and incorrect.

Gah! I really didn't want to participate. *exits quietly*

Nay, Rev. Theology is the queen of the sciences. Philosophy merely her footstool.

[Spock]

Spoken like a true heritic.

[Bombadillo]

I can't believe I missed five pages in just a day. I'm never taking a nap again.

I got a book called "Nietzsche and Depth Psychology" yesterday. Didn't even open it yet, but it promises to be an interesting introduction to his ideas.

Again, just a few things I want to say:

1- My definition of truth is "reality," but that doesn't mean I dare assume that people are capable of recognizing all reality. I actually think that is the only way to define it, but it's so often misused, like in saying "that's true" when we mean "that's how I perceive it," that its meaning has gotten confused. It's an incongruence that originated in linguistics and spilled over into philosophy in a tragic accident. The result is that some philosophers say "truth is subjective" now when they mean "perception is subjective." If none of us were misled by the too-common slang definition of truth, we wouldn't even be questioning this. I do think it's ridiculous, and someone at Webster's or Oxford should have addressed it a long time ago.

2- Lief, don't get discouraged when we all seem to jump down your throat. It's because you're such a damn good debater that we feel the need to defend ourselves against you even when you haven't and don't mean to attack us.

3- Religion and philosophy do overlap sometimes when a religious icon can be associated with a certain way of thinking. We should be able to mention Jesus as freely as we mention Socrates in here, as long as religion never dominates the thread, IMO, and as BB said, as long as Jesus isn't presented as justification for a viewpoint, since that would be pointless as not all of us have faith in him.

4- Actually, our topics so far have been art and beauty, good and evil, truth... why not change the topic to religion for a while?

5- Totally just kidding about number four, Lotesse. snickersnicker

6- This seems relevant to the direction of this thread a few pages back, perhaps even more relevant than the Theological Opinions thread. Religion and Individualism

[Bombadillo]

More importantly, what's so depressing about the nihilists?

I think just the fact that it depresses so many people indicates that humans have a strong urge to believe in something. When they confront the down-to-earth nihilistic view of life, it shatters the hopes and dreams for "something more" which they might not even know that they had.

Coming from me, that's just baseless speculation, though. What do others think?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I can't believe I missed five pages in just a day. I'm never taking a nap again.

LOL!!!

I'm too tired to make a "real" post here tonight, but that just got a big smile out of me, Bomb, and I needed a smile

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Spock

Spoken like a true heritic.

Heretic my toosh. St. Thomas Aquinas says as much, and he is the stereotype for orthodoxy. Besides, isn't heresy hip, and "theology = queen of sciences" not?

Therefore, etc.

Q. E. D.

[Rev. Justin Timberlake]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

More importantly, what's so depressing about the nihilists?

I think just the fact that it depresses so many people indicates that humans have a strong urge to believe in something. When they confront the down-to-earth nihilistic view of life, it shatters the hopes and dreams for "something more" which they might not even know that they had.

Coming from me, that's just baseless speculation, though. What do others think?

Don't see anything wrong with that.

[Lotesse]

Me, neither.

Nietshe's last point of sanity before he totally lost it was when he witnessed a horse being mercilessly flogged by its horrible owner, and he went berserk - Nietsche did, that is. He ran up to the horse, and flung his arms around him, weeping uncontrollably, and tried to shield the horse from furthur blows, with his own body. It blew his mind, how a human being coulds excersise such relentless cruelty upon a faithful beast of burden. Juyst snapped the synapses in his already syphilus-addled mind. He was extraordinarily sensitive. I do love Nietsche. He's often pigeon-holed into a specific ideological label, I think, and very unfairly so. For instance, he was not a misogynist, but certain anti-Nietschians say he was. Certain groups of anti-Nietschians say a lot of nasty, ridiculous stuff about the man and his ideas, but it would take me an awfully long time to outline it all here. Besides, I don't want to. Not here, that's for sure.

[Lotesse]

(following is an excerpt from an online essay)


According to Nietzsche, the other world is an illusion, and instead of worshipping gods man should concentrate on his own elevation, which Nietzsche symbolizes in the Übermench. The contrast of "good and evil" as opposed to that of "good and bad" Nietzsche associated with slave morality. He argued that no single morality can be appropriate to all men. The meaning of history was the appearance, at rare moments, of the exceptional individual. And by creating the figure of Zarathustra he presented the teacher of the coming superman.

[rohirrim TR]

people who take nihilism too seriously, TRUE nihilists, click here this editorial ought to be fair game for what our topic seems to be.

[Lotesse]

I wouldn't call these mentally ill terrorist children "true nihilists." You know, many terrible things have been done by people in this world, in the name of any ideology or religion, including Christianity, Islam, etcetera etcetera. I see your source for the story is the Christian Times. That sucks, but is this a continuation upon a discussion of a philosophical idea, rohirrim, or just a thing to show us so that we can continue the line of conversation in this thread about religion versus philosophy? Not sure where you are coming from, with this little newsflash about nasty killer kids.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

(following is an excerpt from an online essay)


According to Nietzsche, the other world is an illusion, and instead of worshipping gods man should concentrate on his own elevation, which Nietzsche symbolizes in the Übermench. The contrast of "good and evil" as opposed to that of "good and bad" Nietzsche associated with slave morality. He argued that no single morality can be appropriate to all men. The meaning of history was the appearance, at rare moments, of the exceptional individual. And by creating the figure of Zarathustra he presented the teacher of the coming superman.

IF his premise is true, then IMO his deduction from it is certainly true (the part you bolded). IMO, the problem is with his premise, and therefore his deduction is invalid, and that contributed to his insanity For if his premise is true and his deduction true, then there is nothing wrong with that horse being beaten (because "no single morality can be appropriate to all men"), yet it was imprinted in his heart that there WAS something wrong - terribly wrong - with cruelty towards animals. IMO the constant conflict between his erroneous conclusions and the reality in his mind/heart would make anyone go mad.

[rohirrim TR]

I didn't mention religion, the True nihilist comment was reffering to what someone a few pages ago said about there being no such thing as a true "nihilist" I didn't respond right then, but if indeed there is no such thing as a "true" it is decidedly good because they would be law enforcement's worst nightmare, a person with no concsinense or feelings for anything, this news blurb is supportive of that fact. as to whether or not they are mentally ill I can't prove or disprove that, but what if they're not? what if they just truly believe in nothing? thats scary.

[Lotesse]

It's scary? Well, I suppose so. There's a lot of scariness in the world.

[Bombadillo]

This post is in response to some things Lief said in the Theological Opinions thread that could be discussed here.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

So you believe in moral values largely because they just so obviously exist. Experience shows that. So what do you think of these moral values? Are they a law of the universe? Or do they just come from us? If they come from us, did we invent them?

I guess they’re laws of the universe, or laws of nature. We think about them too hard, and complicate them.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Another question. If we have no value and no worth, why is it bad for us to abuse one another? And what's wrong with slavery? I mean, honestly. If slaves had no worth and no value, one should be able to just work them to death and that's it. They're just like machines, after all, if they have no value.

I’m not sure if I mentioned value yet. I think there’s a fine difference between value and worth.

In the same way we're entitled to our own opinions, we're all entitled to do whatever we want, and nothing should limit us. It's a shame that this is utopian and impossible. But if people don't want to work, they shouldn't be forced to. Whether their lives are ultimately good, bad, or worthless (contributing nothing to the grand scheme of things), they deserve that respect.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

How can something be important and simultaneously valueless?

That was stupidly ambiguous of me. What I said was that if you think nothing is important, than it's important for you to be patient and disciplined.

If you adhere to the belief that nothing is important or worthwhile, then you don't do anything solely because it isn't worth the effort. You just wait for death to take you. After a while, though, you get so bored that you want to speed up the process, and you start to wonder if you should kill yourself. If you're not extremely patient (able to stand the wait) or not disciplined (able to entertain your mind in the meantime), then you're very likely to actually go through with it. That’s why these two qualities are so important, if you believe in the value of life.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Well, I do [need to know] .

I can sort of relate to that. I can’t solve a math problem without knowing exactly why I should. It doesn’t help that every math teacher I’ve ever encountered thinks I’m some sort of troublemaker if I ask “why do I need to know this?” Not knowing the point of the problem just drives me crazy sometimes.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I think a large number of people have very fun evil lives.

I don’t think so, but maybe that’s because our definitions of evil don’t match. Mine is about equal to sadism. I think it’s commonly understood that sadists and masochists, while claiming and perhaps half-believing to find fun in pain, are really perpetually struggling with a horrible internal conflict between instinct to do good (conscience) and desire to communicate their anger. That’s no fun at all.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I think it’s commonly understood that sadists and masochists, while claiming and perhaps half-believing to find fun in pain, are really perpetually struggling with a horrible internal conflict between instinct to do good (conscience) and desire to communicate their anger. That’s no fun at all.

This is quite telling. It sort of describes me, or at least me when I was truly suffering and tending to gravitate toward intense, horribly painful circumstances and people who caused me great pain. So, sadist, eh? I never heard it put this way that you just did, here. Very interesting; very cool.


Just want to say again how thoroughly I enjoy your posts, Bombadillo. I swear, I make a beeline for certain members' posts when I see they've made a new one, and you're one of those posters I always "beeline" to.

[Bombadillo]

Originally Posted by RTR's Article

Many adults do not realize that nihilism has become a major strain in the youth culture, especially among intelligent, creative young people, who become convinced of their superiority to their peers and to adult society. They typically become cynics, believing neither in the liberal pap they are force-fed at school nor in the more conservative ideals of their parents. They scorn the church, which they blame for not understanding or appreciating them. Their attitude is reinforced by their music, and they relate to everything with mockery, irony, and theatrical self-displays.

Up until the point where he said "liberal pap they are force-fed at school," this sounded exacly like me. I was impressed. But I don't know where he got the idea that schools are liberal. I guess he meant public schools. Anyway, at the end of his description, I think he confused the people like me, who are generally interested in Nietshe's ideas, with the loser kids who just think nihilists are cool. Otherwise excellent article, though, really.

EDIT: I just realised how sarcastic I probably sounded, but really. I can't blame the old man for blurring high school sub-divisions anyway.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

This is quite telling. It sort of describes me, or at least me when I was truly suffering and tending to gravitate toward intense, horribly painful circumstances and people who caused me great pain. So, sadist, eh? I never heard it put this way that you just did, here. Very interesting; very cool.

Just want to say again how thoroughly I enjoy your posts, Bombadillo. I swear, I make a beeline for certain members' posts when I see they've made a new one, and you're one of those posters I always "beeline" to.

Thanks Lotesse, gosh.

Didn't know you ever were that way.