Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

OK - littlest 2 are in bed, older one is watching basketball with dad, his 6th grade science project is 99% finished (ran out of double-sided tape) (project - how far will red laser light go through different colored jello?), and the 6th load of laundry is in the dryer (didn't get ANY laundry done this weekend, too busy! Lots of fun, 'tho - my mother-in-law almost died of cookie inhalation because my sister-in-law and I were making her laugh so hard while she was eating - death certificate would have been funny - "asphyxiation by cookie"?)

I've wanted to get back to what Eärniel and EG had asked about - the (roughly) "can you be saved if you've never heard of Jesus" question. We talked a bit about it, and something EG said in one of her responses stuck out and I thought "No, no, I didn't quite mean it that way", but it just kinda got lost in the queue for a bit. I've been meaning to get back to it, and our pastor mentioned a verse in the sermon yesterday that illustrated what I wanted to bring up about it, so without making this long and ambiguous introductory statement any longer, here's what I wanted to say:

by Eärniel
Your new post gave me an answer but it also raises other questions. Now if I understand correctly this time people (any time any place but I'll leave that out for now) who do not know God or the bible can be saved since in a way they will know him through nature, moral codes, ect... That implies that they might know God in another context than the bible since they don't know the bible. Then how can you be sure that for instance the god of the jews or islamites isn't the christian god in another context? How can you be sure that they are disbelievers and will go to hell?

by Eruviel Greenleaf
tbd...

*rats, can't find EG's quote, but it was something along the lines of if you believe that God exists, you'll be saved (based on my discussion of how Abraham was saved, although he didn't know Jesus) - I'll try to find it tomorrow, but I'll go ahead w/ my comment*

This is one of those complicated topics, as I said before, and I think that I probably wasn't as clear as I wanted to be. What I wanted to re-address and/or clarify was related to Eärniel's second sentence, and EG's quote that I can't find tonite


What I wanted to be sure to get across is that it is NOT MERELY belief in the sense of believing that God exists, it is faith/belief that also includes the placing of yourself under the lordship of God to the extent that it affects your actions. The verse that the pastor mentioned was the following:

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder.

Satan himself believes in God! But Satan has not placed his faith in God - i.e., placed himself in his right and proper position as created being to creator, in loving submission and respect and following God's will (which is always best for us, anyway - God made us and knows how we work and what is best for us - and NOT best in the "this medicine is good for you" sense - God knows, and asks us to do, what will REALLY and TRULY complete us and give us joy).

Abraham, however, had faith in God, and acted on his faith by being (or at least trying to be - he failed many times!) obedient to what he knew of God's will. It wasn't just "ok, I believe that there is a God, but now I'll get on with the rest of my life and not worry about it at all, or how it might affect me." Just one example -

from Genesis 12:1, 4
Now the Lord said to Abram, "Go forth from your country..." ....... So Abram went forth as the Lord had spoken to him.....

Do you see what I mean?

The NT talks about this by clearly stating that we are saved by faith, but also saying that if there are not works (i.e., obedience to God's law), then there is no faith actually present. Works are the evidence of, and the natural outgrowth of, a true faith in God. And even 'tho the desert island guy doesn't have a Bible, still, God's moral code is written on his heart, and he could obey that. I hope that helps to clarify things a bit.

[Andúril]

Andúril:
Keep in mind that I am an actively weak atheist.

I made a boo-boo. I forgot for a second the relativity of atheism. I am a strong atheist relative to those god-concepts which I think are logically impossible.

So, let's see. I'm a strong, actively and passively weak atheist. Should I be spending more or less time at the gym, or what?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Andúril
I made a boo-boo.

Now Andúril, I asked you to stop using those technical debating terms!!

[Andúril]

RÃ*an:
Now Andúril, I asked you to stop using those technical debating terms!!

I apologize. No more shall I utter such profanity in thine presence.

[Andúril]

Gwaimir Windgem:
Anduril: As you have been talking about how God is impossible,

Only certain god-concepts. I never proposed unequivically that "God is impossible".

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logic proves that there is no God, etc.

Once again, only certain god-concepts. I never proposed unequivocally that "logic proves that there is no God".

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it is certainly a logical conclusion to draw that you have predetermined that their(sic) is no God.

No, it is non sequitur, a common argumentative fallacy. It is also a straw man, because I did not say the things you claim I said.

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I never said that a lack of complete accuracy means complete inaccuracy.

That's nice. I never claimed that you did, so why bring it up?

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Don't put words in my mouth.

LOL! If anyone is guilty of erecting straw men, it is you!

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By "whirring", I meant stop the constant attempting to prove and disprove; couldn't you just read it, without dissecting and nitpicking?

First, there was no "attempting to prove and disprove". And second, you should not have asked me to comment on it if you did not want an honest response.

In any event, I'll continue to pretend that I agree with your description, and answer your questions from that point of view, unless I see something that doesn't quite fit, or is ambiguous.

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Eternal is unending. Something that will never end.

How can one tell if something "will never end"?

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Omnipotent is all-powerful. This does not have to do with being able to lie. As Rian said, there are two kinds of can; one can which is is(sic) physically able to (like I can pick up that box). Another has to do with who you are, and you're(sic) nature (like Lady Macbeth could not kill the king, because of his resemblance to her father).

I really do not care why the Lady Macbeth could not kill the king. The fact is that she could not do it. By telling me that her inability is the result of her nature, then by analogy you are ascribing to weak omnipotence.

A question for you. Does this hypothetical god-concept of yours, who is "all-powerful", have all power?

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Omnipresent means a being that is Everywhere. Allow me to address an issue; you will say that God cannot be omnipresent: Hell is separation from God. As I have said before: All of this Logic does not really apply to the supernatural, in my opinion. You cannot force the supernatural to fit the rules of the natural. Otherwise, how would it be supernatural?

Actually, I will not say that "God cannot be omnipresent". I have seen nothing in your description of "God" thus far that would negate omnipresence.

If the rules of logic do not apply to this god-concept, then what is the point of thinking about it?

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When I say vast, I don't mean physically;

Okay.

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God's physical form was that of Jesus Christ,

Wow! Suddenly your hypothetical god-concept has turned Trinitarian on us!

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I refer to a different kind of vastness; a supernatural vastness; his Being is vast, not his physical shape.

Since I cannot examine the supernatural, and since, in your opinion, logic does not really apply to the supernatural, I see absolutely no point in such conceptualization.

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This being affected you by creating the world you walk on, and creating you (indirectly), according to Christian beliefs. I would say that's a pretty substantial way to affect someone.

Well, that sure was nice of him...

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EXACTLY. In my belief, the human being cannot know exactly how powerful God is.

But you know that he is "all-powerful". If you don't know how powerful he is, how can you say that he is "all-powerful"? What does "all-powerful" mean to you? And let me ask the other question again, just in case you forgot: Does God have all power?

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1 last thing: Couldn't you have just stopped your analysing, logic-izing :P, and dissection, and just read it, without doing any of that; just read it and done this one thing I asked?

No.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Saying that certain things about a Being are impossible is pretty well saying that this Being is impossible.

You did not claim I said that a lack of complete accuracy proves complete inaccuracy, but you implied it. If you were not implying that I said it, then why did you bring it up?

I did not ask for you to dissect it; When someone asks a question, it is implied that they want an answer.

A person cannot know that something will never end; it must be taken on faith. Like the existence of God, or evolution (though personally I think evolution takes a lot more faith).

I don't really know what you mean by "all power". I feel like whatever I answer, you're going to tear me up, so I'll refrain from answering until I know what you mean by that.

I don't believe that. Saying that He cannot do something against his nature does not mean that he cannot cause an "illogical" scenario to take place.

Yes, the Christian God is a Trinity. Though actually I don't believe I referred to the other Third.

Well, since you choose to ignore the Hell part, I'm not complaining.

Well, that part doesn't really make sense. What do you mean by that? Why is there no reason to think about something if it cannot be defined by logic?

You don't have to examine everything.

There's no need to be sarcastic. :P

All-Powerful is used (by me, at least) in a very loose sense. One cannot know the exact definition of God's power.

Let me ask you once and for all: Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is nothing that you cannot completely understand?

[Andúril]

Gwaimir, I would really like to reply to you. In fact, I read through your post and conceived of excellent responses to each line. However, when I was done reading, I recalled that you stated the following:

All of this Logic does not really apply to the supernatural, in my opinion.

This leads me to conclude my part in this discussion, since I see no point in conceptualizing something which is assumed a priori to be outside the bounds of logic.

Good day.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

And why, pray tell, is that?

Let me just say something here. I personally know that there is a God. I have seen too much happen for it to all be coincidental; I have at times been spoken to (of course, not verbally, but in the heart) by God. Many times, God has intervened in my family's finances. He has helped us through difficult times, He has done much for us. I have seen people with broken legs get up and walk. As I said before, I have seen altogether too much to not believe that God exists, and that he is a kind, loving God. He would that none would perish, and the same goes for me. He will accept anyone into His flock, if you will but ask Him. Believe me, even if you suffer in this life (which it is quite likely that you won't), it will pay out in the long run!

[Andúril]

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And why, pray tell, is that?

*snip sermonizing and attempted proselytization*

Nevermind.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is nothing that you cannot completely understand?

I'd really like to hear your response to that, Andúril; would you please respond?

[Andúril]

RÃ*an:
I'd really like to hear your response to that, Andúril; would you please respond?

*sigh*

Fine.

Gwaimir Windgem:
Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is nothing that you cannot completely understand?

Ofcourse not! That's ludicrous. I don't and will never completely understand quantum mechanics -- so what?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

So, if you cannot completely understand that, can you not accept that just maybe you would not be able to completely understand a God if such a Being exists?

[Andúril]

Gwaimir Windgerm:
So, if you cannot completely understand that, can you not accept that just maybe you would not be able to completely understand a God if such a Being exists?

Complete understanding is not a part of the equation for me in this discussion. You have stated that your opinion is that logic does not really apply to God. I have taken this into account, and wish no longer to take part in any further conceptualization of the being in question.

That is all.

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

is anyone else here a wiccan?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Check the original "What's your religion" thread. If I remember, there were quite a few Wiccans. I think BoP was one.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Andúril
*sigh*

Fine. Ofcourse not! That's ludicrous. I don't and will never completely understand quantum mechanics -- so what?

I'd like to say two things -

1- Since you answered with a sad face, Andúril, maybe I should have added on to the question a bit - I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were a know-it-all or anything, what I wanted to ask was more general, actually, something like - Do you think that given enough time (darn those day jobs!) and good teachers that a person can understand everything there is to understand?

2- I've just received some very sobering news about a friend, and I won't have the heart or the energy to post in this thread for a few days, so if there's anyone that is looking for my posts - I'm sorry, but you'll have to wait a bit longer.

[HOBBIT]

she was joking

[Rían]

who are you saying was joking, and about what?

[MasterMothra]

looks like ive been missing a good topic.

i once was a practicing christian, but have since found no logical basis for the existence of any kind of god. there are way to many contridictions in the bible for me to believe that it is the truth. i will say that it is a good story. revelations provides action packed entertainment, while psalms is pleasent to read whether you are christian or not.

if i am wrong, at least ill see everyone at the battle of armageddon, although we will likely be on opposite sides. just think of it: one deciding battle...what a way to go out!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Actually, I think that's unlikely; if I remember correctly, the Battle of Armageddon will be fought between the Lamb of God and the armies of the world. If you're alive at the time, and if you are in an army, then you might be.

Although I don't want to seem preachy, I really don't think that spending eternity in Heaven or Hell is something that you should regard, well, flippantly is the word that comes to mind. Sorry if that comes off as preachy or damning, I just felt I should say that.