Theology III

[Jonathan]

Lief: Abortion is the most crucial moral issue facing our country, from my perspective, and is far more important than poverty.

Brownjenkins: Abortion is one, if not the, most overrated non-issue in US politics.

Although I have to agree with BJ, I realise that's because I don't consider abortion to be equal to mass murder.


Lief, I think I've yet to reply to a post of yours. I'll do that when I have more time.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

IT depends on what the person is saying.

Your sentence seemed to indiate that ALL gay families are good families, and I thought that's what hector was saying was wrong. I suppose it would be fairly easy to prove that NOT all gay families are good families by finding someone in a gay family who has abused their kid.

Hector suggested banning all gay adoption. He also seems to imply that gay families, per se, are not good.

I say many gay families, whether by birth or adoption, are good families, and should, at the least, be assessed on the same basis as other families.

An argument might be made that there are no good families, I suppose. But still, that wouldn't be a gay issue.

[Insidious Rex]

Its not a gay issue. Its a religious issue.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I care that kids get good families too, but I disagree with that last sentence.

Adam Pertman, executive director of the Donaldson Institute, an adoption policy-research organization, and author of Adoption Nation. "The evidence on the ground, based on the markers that we have, is that these are good families," he says. "The social workers I talk to are asking how they can recruit more [gay parents], because they're working. That's the best validation I can think of, unless you think all these child welfare professionals are out to harm kids."

But it would be better to see for yourself, imo.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Its not a gay issue. Its a religious issue.

I believe there are people whose religion suggests that children stuck in foster care or abandoned entirely are better off than children in stable families that aren't composed of men married to women.

I don't agree with them, though, and it would be my opinion that if they're counting on Jesus to back them up on it, they'll be surprised when they meet Him face to face.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

eh, it's not "unnecessarily mean" - it's personal insults, and it's not necessarily Lief or you, it's ANYONE that I think is being personally insulted by ANYONE. There's a lady here that hates my guts and has told me so many times to my (virtual) face, yet I've defended her before and would do so again in a second if I thought she was being wrongly attacked. I didn't see the liar thing from Lief, though - I was staying away from that thread for awhile and missed it, I guess.

The smilies help - typed communication is hard!!!

I was quite serious, and not smily or winky. He interpreted my words correctly. My accusation, and the evidence supporting it, is on posts 60 and 63 of the Gender Issues Thread.

I see there as being a difference between saying something insulting just to tear someone else down, and saying something insulting with evidence to support it rather than just words, not for the stupid purpose of being insulting but rather in order to protect people one cares about from making the mistake of believing someone who is purposefully lying to them, to the possible damage of other people. I believe my insult was just and the thing I was morally compelled to say, in those circumstances I was in.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I was quite serious, and not smily or winky. He interpreted my words correctly. My accusation, and the evidence supporting it, is on posts 60 and 63 of the Gender Issues Thread.

I see there as being a difference between saying something insulting just to tear someone else down, and saying something insulting with evidence to support it rather than just words, not for the stupid purpose of being insulting but rather in order to protect people one cares about from making the mistake of believing someone who is purposefully lying to them, to the possible damage of other people. I believe my insult was just and the thing I was morally compelled to say, in those circumstances I was in.

But in this, as in so many other things, you're wrong. And wrong in that consistant "It's up to Lief to pick what's real and enforce it ' way that rubs me the wrong way everywhere...so I'm not at my best trying to cope with it.

Honestly, Lief, this is the internet. If I emailed everyone my home phone number, I still could not prove that the person who answered the phone was "me." So what possible hope can you give me that I could "prove I'm not Earl"

Could anyone respond to this who sees how absurd it is? And really, I resent being held to a standard that NO ONE else has to meet.

[elven dragonrider]

Originally Posted by Tessar

While I believe that it is just as possible for a gay family to be a horrible family as it is for them to be a great family, the same could be said of any heterosexual family.

Haven't looked at the last page yet, don't know if you are still talking about this, but I agree in full with this.

[elven dragonrider]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

But in this, as in so many other things, you're wrong. And wrong in that consistant "It's up to Lief to pick what's real and enforce it ' way that rubs me the wrong way everywhere...so I'm not at my best trying to cope with it.

Honestly, Lief, this is the internet. If I emailed everyone my home phone number, I still could not prove that the person who answered the phone was "me." So what possible hope can you give me that I could "prove I'm not Earl"

Could anyone respond to this who sees how absurd it is? And really, I resent being held to a standard that NO ONE else has to meet.

Technically you cauld prove it, if you incited everyone to your house and had the FBI and had Leif call your house from his cell phone and you answer in front of his face. That would be, lets say, overboard extreme though.

[elven dragonrider]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Could anyone respond to this who sees how absurd it is? And really, I resent being held to a standard that NO ONE else has to meet.

What standard? Being Earl? And what exactly so disturbingly absurd?

[Tessar]

I don't care if SisterandCousinandAunt is really Katherine Zeta Jones. For all I know, Lief is a 40 year old man and Hector is a teenage girl (well... okay... maybe not ).

This thread has nothing to do with whether anyone here is who they say they are. Let us focus, rather, on the actual topics which are being debated.

Again, if Lief can present evidence to back his claims, then it doesn't really matter if he's a college student or a fifteen year old pop-singer. Same goes for everyone else.


Lets try to return to the debate at hand .

[Lief Erikson]

Good idea.



I think I've got nothing more to respond to, at the moment .

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Could anyone respond to this who sees how absurd it is? And really, I resent being held to a standard that NO ONE else has to meet.

In the end, an insult is only an insult if you let it be.

Also, most people respond in insulting ways when you hit too close to home on a subject they are touchy about. It's a common human defense system against things one doesn't necessarily want to admit about ones self.

Better to just let them go, or just laugh them off.

[Lief Erikson]

Gwaimir, here's a segment from a BBC article that recently came up. It shows a contrast that I've always seen, between the views of Democrats and Republicans.

Originally Posted by BBC News

The US Senate has voted to ease restrictions on using federal funds for stem-cell research, defying the threat of a veto by President George W Bush.

The Democrat-controlled Senate passed the vote with a majority of 63 to 24 - just short of the two-thirds required to override a presidential veto.

Mr Bush has said he will use his powers to veto the Senate's vote. He vetoed a similar draft bill last year.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I don't care if SisterandCousinandAunt is really Katherine Zeta Jones. For all I know, Lief is a 40 year old man and Hector is a teenage girl (well... okay... maybe not ).

This thread has nothing to do with whether anyone here is who they say they are. Let us focus, rather, on the actual topics which are being debated.

Again, if Lief can present evidence to back his claims, then it doesn't really matter if he's a college student or a fifteen year old pop-singer. Same goes for everyone else.


Lets try to return to the debate at hand .

*applauds*

And just to be on topic: there is one divorce in my family, fairly recent...but that's all I'll say. Still too fresh.

p.s. Very funny Tessar

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

And just to be on topic: there is one divorce in my family, fairly recent...but that's all I'll say. Still too fresh.

I'm really sorry to hear that, Hector .

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Gwaimir, here's a segment from a BBC article that recently came up. It shows a contrast that I've always seen, between the views of Democrats and Republicans.

It also shows that a lot of republicans voted with the democrats.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I'm really sorry to hear that, Hector .

What a coincidence: me too

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

It also shows that a lot of republicans voted with the democrats.

A significant number, yes, but that position certainly was nowhere near the consensus of the party.

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

What a coincidence: me too

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

was co-authored by a Republican, Congressman Mike Castle. He made a funny remark, recently, when he showed up in the context of that GSA violation of the Hatch Act.

"In his Tuesday letter, Castle asked how and why the list was compiled and what other agencies have received such a briefing.

"I do not condone this practice and I do not appreciate being drawn into this situation," he wrote. "I request that the White House removes my name and Congressional District from this and other similar lists."

Castle said Tuesday that he does not need help from the White House -- or Bush -- in any event.

"It's hard to make the argument that he's a strong asset at this point," Castle said. "Typically, I run my own campaigns. I'm certainly not depending on President Bush or anyone else other than myself."

"If the White House really wants to help me, they could talk with me about some of the things I've been talking about with Iraq or not vetoing my stem cell research legislation," Castle said."

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/p...0367/1006/NEWS

Gotta love people who can think for themselves.