Abortion.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Just out of curiosity, do you remember my position on this?

no... i assume you wish to make abortion illegal on grounds of it being murder... which would lead to capital punishment for getting one in some states... but please tell me if i'm wrong

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Everyone brings up the rape issue, but I had never heard from people who had been raped and decided to carry the child to term. I read an article a few years back, talking about 5 or so women who had done just that. And the neat thing is that for them, it gave them back a sense of control to do that.

Everyone's different and everyone can react differently to such a difficult situation. That's why I think it is important that women have the choice to abort or bear until birth. For the women you mentioned, keeping the child worked out, others will not be able to bear that very thought.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownie

no... i assume you wish to make abortion illegal on grounds of it being murder... which would lead to capital punishment for getting one in some states... but please tell me if i'm wrong

I had a feeling no one would remember my position! I've stated it quite a few times, IIRC. But I imagine it goes against what many people think I would think, so I guess it doesn't stay in people's minds.

I think it is a complicated subject, and I'm not set in stone on my ideas in this area. You can "legislate" morality to a certain extent, but obviously not fully, and I think we need to choose which battles to fight for, considering it from every angle. I think that partial birth abortion should definitely be illegal, but earlier abortions should not be illegal. But some level of parental/guardian notification should be in place (it's ridiculous that you can't give kids an aspirin without parental consent, but that same kid can get an abortion), and standards of abortion clinics should be tightened - some of the things that happen in some clinics are atrocious.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I had a feeling no one would remember my position! I've stated it quite a few times, IIRC. But I imagine it goes against what many people think I would think, so I guess it doesn't stay in people's minds.

I think it is a complicated subject, and I'm not set in stone on my ideas in this area. You can "legislate" morality to a certain extent, but obviously not fully, and I think we need to choose which battles to fight for, considering it from every angle. I think that partial birth abortion should definitely be illegal, but earlier abortions should not be illegal. But some level of parental/guardian notification should be in place (it's ridiculous that you can't give kids an aspirin without parental consent, but that same kid can get an abortion), and standards of abortion clinics should be tightened - some of the things that happen in some clinics are atrocious.

thanks for reminding me... i hold basically the same opinion... if you want an abortion you should either make the decision very early on, or just live with it

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

thanks for reminding me... i hold basically the same opinion... if you want an abortion you should either make the decision very early on, or just live with it

I agree here, definitely. IMO, rape or no rape, there's just no reason to abort after the first trimester just because a woman wants to. Period. You're gonna know you're pregnant before the end of that first trimester, I guarantee it, and WAY before the end of the first trimester, so you'll have plenty of time to arrange an abortion or decide one way or the other.

What Rian stated her stance is on abortion legality (and I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with Rian, of all people, on an abortion topic point! ), I hold to that as well, I agree with Rian here. This is the legality viewpoint, not the morality viewpoint, BTW.

To quote Rian, she said, " I think it is a complicated subject, and I'm not set in stone on my ideas in this area. You can "legislate" morality to a certain extent, but obviously not fully, and I think we need to choose which battles to fight for, considering it from every angle. I think that partial birth abortion should definitely be illegal, but earlier abortions should not be illegal. But some level of parental/guardian notification should be in place (it's ridiculous that you can't give kids an aspirin without parental consent, but that same kid can get an abortion), and standards of abortion clinics should be tightened - some of the things that happen in some clinics are atrocious."

[brownjenkins]

feel the love

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

... (and I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with Rian, of all people, on an abortion topic point! ...

heehee!

[inked]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I had a boyfriend a while back, he was a product of rape, and his mother hated him for it but never overtly. The knowledge of what he was destroyed him, turned him into a really friggin' tortured soul, so unbelieveably violent and filled with self-loathing. He used to freak out for no apparant reason on ME, trying to kill me all the time. His heart was meant to be gentle and was filled with potential for great creativity, but he was never able to access himself without the taint of where he'd come from; my GOD he was a mangled soul. He often wished he'd never been born, but he wasn't suicidal, he was homicidal. He was a product of rape, who his mother kept, and loved ,even though she also secretly hated him 'cause she couldn't help it. Hmmm. He wasn't abused or anything,mind you, but he sure turned INTO a violent, homicidal abuser.

Just out of curiosity, Lotesse, why not apply a retro-active abortion to this poor, tortured soul to put him out of his misery? Or does he deserve some sort of mercy because he's not responsible for his actions all because he alleges them to be due to his being a product of rape? I personally doubt the reason for his behaviors as all due to that one fact. I bet you don't really mean that either.

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i agree, and am glad you would not want to take it to that extreme

on the rest, there are many variables present today that make it impossible to compare with the past... not the least of which is that abortion has been legal for so long... much like we learned with prohabition, it is a difficult thing to take something away that is a given for so long

as far as sex education and the availability of contraception go... i don't agree with the "take the responsibility or be damned" approach... i think it is our responsibility to do as much as we can for both the responsible and the irresponsible in our society

and i personally went through the "white, college-educated" route, and the methods of education and contraceptive availability leave a lot to be desired

What a copout, brownjenkins! Look at the final quotation in my sig. Your second paragraph is sheer cow manure!

[Rían]

inked, do you have any numbers about what percentage of abortions are performed due to the risk of real, physical harm to the mother?

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by inked

Just out of curiosity, Lotesse, why not apply a retro-active abortion to this poor, tortured soul to put him out of his misery? Or does he deserve some sort of mercy because he's not responsible for his actions all because he alleges them to be due to his being a product of rape? I personally doubt the reason for his behaviors as all due to that one fact. I bet you don't really mean that either.

I want NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING to do with this man ever, ever, ever again. This "poor tortured soul" was by far and away the most psychotically abusive man I have ever been with; I am wildly fortunate to have escaped from him with my life. He took EVERYthing from me, trying to keep me with him, I mean my passport and some family heirlooms to my car, even my friggin' clothes. Only because my homeboy stepped in one night and rescued me did I live, that time - when he tried to strangle me to death because he was convinced I'd taken some of his cigarettes and was lying to him about it. He threw a huge brick through my car window one afternoon, trying to smash my head in with it; thank god it only fractured my forearm. That was about a week before I was finally able to disappear from him. I will never stop worrying that he will someday be able to track me down, believe me I know he'll never stop trying as long as he lives.
Maybe his problems are not because he hates himself for being a product of rape, and maybe they are, but I'm tellin' ya, that poor tortured soul can figure it out on his own. I am not a believer in the professional victim thing, the whole "it's not my fault I'm a murderous bastard because I was raised cruelly" or whatever. BAH!!!

All I'm tryna say, is that he's the only person I know of who I know was a product of rape, and it must have had SOMEthing to do with his immense psychological problems, don't you think it might be a small possibility????

[Rían]

I think it's a possibility, and it's certainly true that our actions, good or bad, affect others, often very far down the line.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

What a copout, brownjenkins! Look at the final quotation in my sig. Your second paragraph is sheer cow manure!

times change, my friend... one can't turn back the clock... there are many factors that were true in the 50s and 60s, not the least of which is the level of independence women have these days... you can not turn back the clock

copout, no... i'd call it an ability to distinguish between reality and ideals... and if you don't believe that, read my sig

[Lotesse]

* i don't think it was a copout or cow manure, either*

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

* i don't think it was a copout or cow manure, either*

one man's cow manure is another man's fertilizer

[inked]

BJ, it was a cop out, Dude. And, given the size of the mushrooms growing on it, I think the argument for manure is pretty good! Besides, your argument is out of date and ineffective because I SAY SO. (Hey, if it works for you, why can't it work for me? )

[Nurvingiel]

Actually, I've never seen mushrooms growing on cow manure. I think there is too much light - spores are very sensitive to UV rays.
Edit: No... it probably isn't the light thing. Maybe the type of fungal decomposers that live in cow pies don't have fruiting bodies... or maybe there's too much variation in moisture content. Yeah, that one sounds more plausible.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

BJ, it was a cop out, Dude. And, given the size of the mushrooms growing on it, I think the argument for manure is pretty good! Besides, your argument is out of date and ineffective because I SAY SO. (Hey, if it works for you, why can't it work for me? )

another quote for you...

If you believe the doctors, nothing is wholesome; if you believe the theologians, nothing is innocent; if you believe the military, nothing is safe. ~ Lord Salisbury

[Lotesse]

********

[brownjenkins]

let's keep this discussion on the issues, not the posters