Relativism VS. Absoulte - Page 14

Lizra · 08-02-2002, 12:50 AM

Well, I can't go with humans being the only creatures with the mental capacity. We don't know what other species are THINKING, it's just a bunch of electrical impulses and biochemical reactions right....... Yet, you feel more than that, who's to say a cow or dolphin doesn't.

Rána Eressëa · 08-02-2002, 12:56 AM

Their minds don't have the power to, Lizra. They haven't developed those parts of the brain as much as we have yet. By the way (and no, this isn't trying to be snotty) how much of that kind of science do you know?

Lizra · 08-02-2002, 12:57 AM

Alot. I know we haven't even scratched the surface of understanding what goes on in the brain. How much do you know?

I really think the cat thinks those terrifying things might kill him, that's why he's scared........but then again, I certainly don't know what animals "think". Nobody does.

Well If it wasn't meant to be snotty, them it was simply rude and insulting. I majored in science in high school and have three years of college, majoring in environmental science. Even if I didn't, what a snippy thing to say to someone.

BeardofPants · 08-02-2002, 12:58 AM

Just a thought, but I would like to mention that there seems to be an overwhelming capacity of people that "dumb down" an animals ability to perceive the world which they live in. To say that humans are the only ones that think about death seems to me to be very arrogant. (And I would like to see a few more studies into the nature of quantum mechanics, etc, before I draw any judgments of the "dumbness" of animals.) I think perhaps it would be more accurate to say that humans are the only ones that perceive the relevance (or symbolism) of death. Have you ever seen a lamb led to slaughter? Seen the fear in their eyes? How they smell the blood? That seems to me, very much like they have an ability to pick up on the event of death. That is not to say, however, that they realise the significance of it, or the symbolism of it, because as far as that goes, humans are the only species which thus far seem to exhibit an ability to perceive symbolism.

Rána Eressëa · 08-02-2002, 01:03 AM

I'm not saying their dumb. They realize a lot of things we do. They have emotions, and they can think. But death - in such as what it truly means, and the way we perceive it - is not something that would cross their minds. They run when their chased. When they're no longer chased, they stop immediately and go back to their regular life. We don't do that; we run til we can't run. That's basic proof they don't worry about death and dying - once again as I must say - in our term of its meaning. They don't fear it as we do, nor think of it the way we can.

Animals are smart - just not in the same way we are. And I don't find it arrogant, but I do find it rushed and thoughtless when people don't clearly disect what was written, BoP.

Tanoliel · 08-02-2002, 01:04 AM

I think the point would be, perhaps, that humans are the ones who obsess over death. We don't know what exactly goes on in the mind of an animal, and therefore we can't really say they don't think about death. But we can say, I think, that humans have a huge preoccupation with death. Example: massive amounts of theories about what happens when you die. The vast majority of people don't want to believe that nothing happens, that it's simply over. Then there's myths about immortality, things coming back from the dead (like vampires. . .) and so on. We're really quite obsessed, and I don't think (though I don't know this at all) that animals do not have this obsession.

BeardofPants · 08-02-2002, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rána Eressëa
They don't fear it as we do.

Refer to my previous post. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I would like to say that we can not ever say exactly what goes on in their heads, because we can't get into them. So what you're saying at the end of the day is conjecture. Speculation. Nothing more. And if we're going to drag up snobbery ("how much science DO YOU know?"), then I would suggest behaving like scientists, and keep an open mind. Quantum mechanics will soon permeate other fields of science (unless I'm very much mistaken), due to it's sheer applicability, and I suspect that some of the nature of these studies will be an endeavour to understand the function of the mammalian brain. Perhaps then, we will be able to draw some more conclusive arguments regarding death, and animal behaviour. In the meantime, don't write anything off too soon.

Oh yeah, and what Tano said.

Rána Eressëa · 08-02-2002, 01:12 AM

How do I know they don't think of it as we do? Because I don't see them going to church or worshipping a golden statue. That's how. It's not hard science - it's simple knowledge.

But the capacity thought of animals wasn't the point of my post. Nobody seems to be registering that.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 08-02-2002, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Oh yeah, and what Tano said.

Actually, that was me. . .Tano was at my house, and she forgot to log off. . .oops

Lizra · 08-02-2002, 01:16 AM

Right.......(in response to RE not Eruvial)

BeardofPants · 08-02-2002, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rána Eressëa
How do I know they don't think of it as we do?

I am unsure if you are referring to my post, or Lizra's, but I would like to point out that I'm not saying that at all. All I'm saying, is that we don't currently know their full capacity for thinking about death.

Good post EG.

I retract the Tano statement - should have known that was too intelligent for a goddess.

Rána Eressëa · 08-02-2002, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
All I'm saying, is that we don't currently know their full capacity for thinking about death.

True. But studying the actions of an animal often reveals a good deal of their thoughts. Just not with humans because we aren't exactly the most honest creatures on he planet.

Rána Eressëa · 08-02-2002, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lizra
Right.......(in response to RE not Eruvial)

Speaking of arrogance, BoP . . .

BeardofPants · 08-02-2002, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rána Eressëa

True. But studying the actions of an animal often reveals a good deal of their thoughts. Just not with humans because we aren't exactly the most honest creatures on he planet.

To an extent I agree. However, I'm beginning to distrust to notion of "cause and effect." To me it seems horribly simplistic. Don't ask me for an alternative though, because I don't know! (Yup, educational crisis, can ya tell?

) And I'll certainly agree with your honest human notion.

Ah, human fallacy: I love it!

Rána Eressëa · 08-02-2002, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
To an extent I agree.

Yes, to an extent. That's why I made sure I said "often" and not "always".

Animals can be deceptive, but we will be deceptive in some ways that they wouldn't. So their actions are often more honest than ours, making cause and effect quite more effective with them than us. They have no reasons to be deceptive in many ways that we are. And all that useless fire from my post came from me not mentioning "death - in the way we think of it as". I thought most of you would pick up on that, but obviously you have to clarify everything down to the very last atom to get the point clear across.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 08-02-2002, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants

Good post EG. I retract the Tano statement - should have known that was too intelligent for a goddess.

Thanks, BoP.

Andúril · 08-02-2002, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Azalea:
Okay then, what's YOUR explanation -- not just invalidating my statement, but giving your explanation for higher thinking, etc., as I brought up in my post? (I'm not being argumentative, I really am interested to know what you think).

What is there to explain? Should I explain why a chimpanzee is more intelligent than a rat? Or why a rat is more intelligent than an ant?

Why are humans so special? On a planet that sustains lifeforms, there will be some animals that are more intelligent than others, and there will be a most intelligent animal. You and I and the rest of us here just happen to be examples of the most intelligent creatures on the planet; the ones with the most complex brains. What is the big deal?

We think humans are special because we are humans. We think "Oh, humans are so great, just look how clever we are - no other animal is as clever as us...". But how "great" are we in other regards? Can we swim as fast as a dolphin? Can we fly? Can we run as fast as a cheetah? Can we beat a silverback gorilla in one-on-one weaponless combat? Are we really "special"?

Do we have the most complex brain? Yes. And how much, exactly, of that brain do we actually use? It seems to me that humans could be a whole lot more "special".

Anyway, looking at your statements, I think those are the nonnest non-sequiturs that I have yet seen. Oh, and btw, some humans do eat their young. And can you prove to me that you exist?

Arathorn · 08-02-2002, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants

I am unsure if you are referring to my post, or Lizra's, but I would like to point out that I'm not saying that at all. All I'm saying, is that we don't currently know their full capacity for thinking about death.

As someone who gets some of their info from the Nat Geog. Channel, I seem to remember features where they were observing how elephants seem to obsess about death as well. They have their own language based on infrasound (low frequencies which are often inaudible but can carry out many kilometers) and they seem to stop and examine bones of their dead a lot that it looks like they're performing rituals. They also crowd around a recently killed member of their herd and seem a bit more concerned than usual about any youngsters that elephant might have; sort of being more protective of it.

There's another feature where Jane Goodall (sp?) was describing how chimps she used to study would pause and seem to enjoy the view of a waterfall and even start playing a bit as if appreciating its beauty.

What I'm saying is that I'm open to the possibility that animals may be sentient too but we just don't speak the same language.

BeardofPants · 08-02-2002, 03:38 AM

Quote:

What I'm saying is that I'm open to the possibility that animals may be sentient too but we just don't speak the same language.

Thanks for digging up the info Arathorn (Yeah, I'm too lazy too look for it!

) I DO seem remember reading about the elephants "obsession" with death somewhere...

BeardofPants · 08-02-2002, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rána Eressëa
I thought most of you would pick up on that, but obviously you have to clarify everything down to the very last atom to get the point clear across.

Nitpicking is my middle name.

However, I'm still deeply suspicious about the premise of cause and effect - it just seems too convenient and simplistic.

08-02-2002, 12:56 AM	#262
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Their minds don't have the power to, Lizra. They haven't developed those parts of the brain as much as we have yet. By the way (and no, this isn't trying to be snotty) how much of that kind of science do you know? Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 08-02-2002 at 01:16 AM.

08-02-2002, 12:57 AM	#263
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Alot. I know we haven't even scratched the surface of understanding what goes on in the brain. How much do you know? I really think the cat thinks those terrifying things might kill him, that's why he's scared........but then again, I certainly don't know what animals "think". Nobody does. Well If it wasn't meant to be snotty, them it was simply rude and insulting. I majored in science in high school and have three years of college, majoring in environmental science. Even if I didn't, what a snippy thing to say to someone. Last edited by Lizra : 08-02-2002 at 01:27 AM.

08-02-2002, 12:58 AM	#264
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Just a thought, but I would like to mention that there seems to be an overwhelming capacity of people that "dumb down" an animals ability to perceive the world which they live in. To say that humans are the only ones that think about death seems to me to be very arrogant. (And I would like to see a few more studies into the nature of quantum mechanics, etc, before I draw any judgments of the "dumbness" of animals.) I think perhaps it would be more accurate to say that humans are the only ones that perceive the relevance (or symbolism) of death. Have you ever seen a lamb led to slaughter? Seen the fear in their eyes? How they smell the blood? That seems to me, very much like they have an ability to pick up on the event of death. That is not to say, however, that they realise the significance of it, or the symbolism of it, because as far as that goes, humans are the only species which thus far seem to exhibit an ability to perceive symbolism. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-02-2002, 01:03 AM	#265
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	I'm not saying their dumb. They realize a lot of things we do. They have emotions, and they can think. But death - in such as what it truly means, and the way we perceive it - is not something that would cross their minds. They run when their chased. When they're no longer chased, they stop immediately and go back to their regular life. We don't do that; we run til we can't run. That's basic proof they don't worry about death and dying - once again as I must say - in our term of its meaning. They don't fear it as we do, nor think of it the way we can. Animals are smart - just not in the same way we are. And I don't find it arrogant, but I do find it rushed and thoughtless when people don't clearly disect what was written, BoP. Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 08-02-2002 at 01:10 AM.

08-02-2002, 01:04 AM	#266
Tanoliel Eccentric Chocolate Crow Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The Emerald City--Seattle, WA Posts: 1,861	I think the point would be, perhaps, that humans are the ones who obsess over death. We don't know what exactly goes on in the mind of an animal, and therefore we can't really say they don't think about death. But we can say, I think, that humans have a huge preoccupation with death. Example: massive amounts of theories about what happens when you die. The vast majority of people don't want to believe that nothing happens, that it's simply over. Then there's myths about immortality, things coming back from the dead (like vampires. . .) and so on. We're really quite obsessed, and I don't think (though I don't know this at all) that animals do not have this obsession. __________________ Wisdom for Short Attention Spans...Ozy and Millie. It rocks. Food Of The Gods: 3,7-dihydro-3,7-dimethyl-1H-purine-2,6-dione Feed Me.... Another Online Dwelling Place... "All right, I confess. It is my intention to comandeer a ship, pick up a crew in Tortuga, to rape, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weasely black guts out." -Captain Jack Sparrow "The trouble with unknown enemies is that they are so difficult to identify." -Amelia Peabody Emerson "Most people obey the orders of someone who is pointing a gun at their head." -A.P. Emerson

08-02-2002, 12:50 AM	#261
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Well, I can't go with humans being the only creatures with the mental capacity. We don't know what other species are THINKING, it's just a bunch of electrical impulses and biochemical reactions right....... Yet, you feel more than that, who's to say a cow or dolphin doesn't.

08-02-2002, 01:12 AM	#268
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	How do I know they don't think of it as we do? Because I don't see them going to church or worshipping a golden statue. That's how. It's not hard science - it's simple knowledge. But the capacity thought of animals wasn't the point of my post. Nobody seems to be registering that. Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 08-02-2002 at 01:14 AM.

08-02-2002, 01:16 AM	#270
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Right.......(in response to RE not Eruvial) Last edited by Lizra : 08-02-2002 at 01:18 AM.

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