02-21-2005, 02:54 PM | #261 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Let me ask you a quick question, Blackheart, then I'll be able to respond to your points in a few hours -
IYO, does rape involve any type of sexual behavior?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-21-2005, 03:20 PM | #262 | |
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Quote:
Does watching TV involve any type of sexual behavior? Yes, yes it does. Voyeurism. IS however watching TV a sexual behavior? No. No it is not.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-21-2005, 05:41 PM | #263 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK, playing along with you for a few minutes -
What IS a "sexual behavior", then, according to you? And what is "rape", according to you? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-21-2005, 06:29 PM | #264 | |||
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May I suggest: http://www.answers.com/sexual+behavior&r=67 http://en.mimi.hu/sexuality/sexual_behavior.html What is important to note, is that the behaviors you keep mentioning are considered to be devient. They are outside the norm of sexual behavior. As such they are abnormal, and are not properly "sexual behavior" because sexual behavior without any qualification is going to have to be assumed as normative (normal) sexual behavior. Quote:
The assault is the important legal part however, since sexual is a classification of a type of assault. (Asault with a deadly weapon, aggravated assault, etc)... I hate to be cliche' but sexual assault is really about the assault. There certainly are overt sexual components, however there are sexual components in any assault. They are subvert however, not overt. A psycho who stabs someone with a knife 50 times is engaging in a form of sexual subversion, whether or not he (or she) realizes it. There's some relevant working defintions at http://ub-counseling.buffalo.edu/legal.shtml http://www.medem.com/medlb/article_d...EC&sub_cat=351 Quote:
All of which is beside the point of the original question. Since we know that there is legal precident to regulate sexual behavior for teens, why not legally mandate abstinenece?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-21-2005, 08:06 PM | #265 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-22-2005, 05:48 PM | #266 | |
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You are correct, legislating teen abstinence would not fix the problem. No more than any of the prostitution laws enacted have "fixed" the problems they were intended for. The reason being, as you have stated, is that it is very difficult to legislate morality. In fact it's damned difficult to change people's behavior even if they want to change it! The few successes that we can point to in these types of endeavors, changing people's behavior, usually have education in common. But specifically education that provides a diverse range of complete information, allowing the individuals to make their own decision. And surprisingly, it is usually the decision that is regarded as "best" for "everyone". It has a lot to do with something Socrates observed a very long time ago. True wisdom is the narrowing of choices down to nothing. A truly wise man would have no choices, indeed he would need to make none, since he would already know what was "best". If we knew what was "best" perhaps we could legislate other people's behavior, or lie to them, or withold information. Unfortunately (or fortunately) we do not know with certainty what is best for everyone, much less if it applies equally to all individuals. Therefore the only palatable solution is to provide all the information available to the individuals, and trust them to make the correct decisions for themselves. It certainly isn't a perfect solution, but it isn't a perfect world either. Which is why I find sex education that covers the entire range of possible solutions preferable. If it makes anyone feel better, I certainly think that they could do more to teach teens HOW to stay abstinent... It's not as simple as saying no, or even introducing simplistic ideas of peer pressure. I'd suggest masterbation, but then that's probably going to set up another round of outrage about what the hell are they teaching our children about in these damned sex education classes... It's a real shame that most people never get any real information until they reach college, and then only if they happen to take the correct courses. By which time it's usually a bit late...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-23-2005, 08:28 PM | #267 | |
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Kiddies, all I can say is, don't watch TV at Mr. Blackheart's house ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-24-2005, 02:40 AM | #268 |
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I'd say they're pretty safe, except for the commercials. I don't let my spawn.. er children.. watch the commercials. Absolutely dripping with subliminal sexual content.
I much prefer that any content be out in the open where they can ask questions about it.... Though mostly all they ever see is violence... On the news, in the shows... It's no wonder that predatory behavior is on the rise... And you toss in those subliminal commercials and what do you have? The perfect brainwashing tool to create predators with sex-related fixations. Actually, it might be better off if children didn't watch TV at anybody's house....
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
02-24-2005, 07:53 AM | #269 | |
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It's a no-brainer, abstinence is the ONLY way to go, but peer pressure is more subtle than the kind they warned us about in grade school in the 90's *coughImean70'scough*. The pressure to be accepted by another (physically) & (emotionally) are more than somewhat tied during those years. I suggest we get a government program to fund a "Lets distract them" campaign....we buy them all PS2's plus 10 games and send them to their rooms...
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02-24-2005, 02:11 PM | #270 |
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Well... I have to disagree that abstinence is the ONLY way to go, applied absolutely and without qualification, in each and every situation.
It's like saying everyone is always the same. A patently uninteresting and stale idea.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
02-25-2005, 06:35 PM | #271 |
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I finally have some time to catch up on the threads now -
As I re-checked the thread title, I realized that the whole discussion I've been having with Blackheart on this thread is actually a digression from the thread topic, in response to Blackheart's snide remark about people who are interested in other people's sex lives, when Lawrence v. Texas came up. I pointed out that unless he was willing to remove all laws that refer to sex, that he, too, is interested in other people's sex lives. In the course of the discussion, he used terms, then used them later with modifiers like they were somehow the same when in fact the meaning was quite different. He also brought up the classic response about rape - that it's about power and/or violence (I forget which one he used). Of course it has quite a lot to do with power and/or violence, but if it was ONLY about power and violence, then my forcing one of my kids to wear a jacket when they don't want to wear it would be rape. It's obvious that rape is also about some type of sexual behavior or act. So to keep off-topic posts at a minimum, I'll just give one example (since he has difficulties defining sexual behaviors in general, on his own admission) - sexual intercourse. I hope he would admit that this is a sexual act or behavior! And forced sexual intercourse is rape. And I sure hope he isn't campaigning to remove rape laws, because people shouldn't be interested in other people's sex lives.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-25-2005, 06:41 PM | #272 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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My finger would get damaged if I stuck it into the frying pan when I was browning onions. Shall I tell one of my kids to stick their finger in the pan, because everyone is NOT always the same? It's a design consideration - pure and simple (and VERY interesting! People are fascinating to me - altho it's obvious that their bodies share a common design, their MINDS are wonderfully different and imaginative!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-25-2005, 10:39 PM | #273 | ||||
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If you forced your child to wear that jacket by beating him senseless would it then be an assault? You're damned right it would. It's a perfect example of why you can't seem to understand the point about sexual assault. The jacket is not the central issue, the fact that you had to beat the child or hold a weapon on them to make them wear it its. Quote:
Why do you think that a sexual assault is more horrible than any other assault? Because it's a more personal violation? OK, I'll buy that. But there are other forms of personal violation more heinous. Brainwashing, cannibalism, torture, and of course death, to name a few. These are however also assaults. Murder can be a type of assault also, it is differentiated only by the termination or attempt to terminate someone's life (Note that poisoning someone is not an assault). But the difference is only in the result. Not the method. The method is violence. It's not me that has difficulty defining sexual behaviors. It's in the nature that such interactions are subjective from culture to culture and person to person. But I see you chose to ignore that and stick your head back in the sand. Why don't you go ask the baptist convention why they think blowjobs aren't sex.... When it's pretty obviously open to debate. If it's not sex, then how can it be sexual behavior? Lastly, this isn't off topic. It directly relates to the idea that abstinence only education is a less effective way to do things, and it's proponants objections are based more on their fear response and taboo acculturation than on any solid data.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-25-2005, 11:52 PM | #274 | |||||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I don't support abstinance-only education, btw. Am I motivated by fear? Wait - you think those who support ab-only ed. are motivated by fear, so I can't be motivated by fear, right? Or are both sides motivated by fear? Is everyone motivated by fear, according to you, or just everyone but you? Just what IS your unfounded opinion on this matter? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-25-2005 at 11:56 PM. |
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02-26-2005, 12:12 AM | #275 | |||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK, here's examples of what I mean by your saying one thing and then modifying it later on and acting like that's what you meant in the first place:
Quote 1 Quote:
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I have no problem with you modifying your statements; I agree that's part of a discussion, but you certainly haven't invalidated my objection by changing your words! The objection to your quote 1 still stands, unless you are willing to change it to something like this : "Whatever the legal merits of the case, it is indeed one of the decisions that people who are concerned with minding other people's acceptable sexual behavior quote when they note the left leanings of the courts. " I would HOPE you're concerned, along with many others, with sexual behaviors that you DON'T think are acceptable. I would HOPE you would continue to support laws against rape, which involve certain types of sexual behavior (e.g., intercourse; in this case, forced). Quote 4 Quote:
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Quote 7 Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-26-2005 at 12:35 AM. |
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02-26-2005, 12:58 AM | #276 | ||
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Sex in and of itself isn't damaging. It's the associated factors that are dangerous. To use your analogy, it would be like telling your children to never stick their fingers in any pan, anytime, anywhere. Even the unheated ones under the cabinet. Or to reverse your analogy, a heated pan would be like having unprotected sex with an HIV patient. Risky at the very least, and likely to be highly damaging. And yes, I do not reccomend you tell your children to do it. Maybe you should tell your children to never drive or ride in a car. It is the number one killer of young people in this country after all.... Maybe we need more money for driving lessons too... [/QUOTE]It's a design consideration - pure and simple (and VERY interesting! People are fascinating to me - altho it's obvious that their bodies share a common design, their MINDS are wonderfully different and imaginative!)[/QUOTE] Is that why marriage is a "relatively" recent cultural invention? Setting aside the issue of whether or not humans were designed, there's plenty to argue about whether humans are by nature monagamous. Marriage is not a cultural institution common across all cultures, and it certainly varies from culture to culture. Multiple wives, multiple husbands, and group marriages have all been "common" at some point in human history. I'm sure all those people were sure humans were "designed" for those types of relationships also. There are even societies where the concept of marriage is horrifying to people, the idea that one human would have such a claim over someone. Serial monogamy is what is most common in western cultures, and it may indeed be the most practical form of relationship. At least for our culture and time. But the idea that this structure fits everyone, or is even the best for everyone, is demonstrably false, simply by the fact that other societies have relationship systems that work equally well (if not better) than ours. And if you can't say with any certainty that serial monagamy is best for everyone, then you can't say that only sex inside such a relationship is best for everyone.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-26-2005, 01:08 AM | #277 |
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Blackheart,
Try here for the issue of marriage. A little sociology and history would do you well. http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=11533 'Moot style, of course!
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02-26-2005, 01:33 AM | #278 | |||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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But based on your objection, I'll clarify my statement to reflect more accurately what I thought and say this : "What it IS saying, IMO, is that humans share a physical design, and that we are wonderfully designed to express our sexuality in the context of a committed marriage between a man and a woman, and that any other option is damaging to us in varying degrees. Not uninteresting and stale at all - just part of the reality of any design." Now do you have any objections with that statement? (note how I granted your objection and phrased my statement more accurately. Will you rephrase YOUR statement, now, about minding other people's sexual behaviors?) Quote:
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And I will tell them how sex is designed and works, and how to maintain a great sex life, and how to have sex as safely as possible, but life isn't simple, and even if they have safe sex practices, others might not, and they might get hurt. But IMO, it's WORTH it to have sex properly! Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-26-2005 at 01:35 AM. |
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02-26-2005, 02:10 AM | #279 | ||||||||
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Anyone with any common sense would have known that sexual behavior in the context of such a discussion referred to normative sexual behavior. But I learned a long time ago not to take such things for granted. So I went on a tangent to explain the difference. If you think that means I changed my position, or my meaning, or my intent, you are mistaken. Quote:
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Since I obviously am NOT, I could only conclude that since you seem in favor of regarding those types of behavior as sexual behaviors, and the discussion context was about normative sexual behaviors, you must regard them as normative. I'm relieved to find that you do not. But it sucks to have someone purposefully "misunderstand" you doesn't it? If you want the real reason, it was to illustrate graphically how such tactics are destructive to discussions. You knew quite well that such behaviors were not within the scope of what I was talking about, but you chose to throw them in anyway. Unfortunately it had the side effect of making it look like you equated such behaviors with normative behaviors. Which I could probably have been nicer about pointing out. But then I'm human on odd weekdays, and therefore prone to human failings. Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-26-2005, 02:15 AM | #280 | |
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only 8000 words?!
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If you are really wondering, and not just being facetious, I can probably give you an intelligable explination of why "sex crimes" are called "sex crimes" when almost any crime has a sexual element. But then you seemed not to understand when I pointed out that watching TV has a sexual componant, so I may be wrong in my estimate of explaining it in a comprehensive enough manner... Suffice it to say that they are called "sex crimes" because they contain an obvious overt sexual component. Stealing women's underwear is a "sex crime". The sexual component is obvious enough that even lay people "get it". However you might not understand the sexual componant of a crime such as a seemingly random assault on a same sex stranger. It does, of course, depend on the individual involved, but such crimes are often linked to the individual's fear of their own latent homosexual tendancies. Other times it is related to psycho-sexual conflicts with a father-figure who was somehow viewed as a competitor (instead of a care-giver) for mother's affection. Which (without going into a deep explination of post-Freudian thinking) basically means that the individual grows up viewing most males as competitors for sex and affection. Sex and affection (for males especially) are deeply linked to necessary love from females, because of the desperate need that children have for mother's affection. It's a survival issue, because children who aren't loved by their mother often do not survive very long. If that's not enough explination, perhaps another thread should be started
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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