REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Rían]

Nay, I'm ashamed of my puny post count ... I can't bear to talk anymore ... the shame, the agony!





Oh, ok, but wait until the kids are in bed

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...Oh, ok, but wait until the kids are in bed

*waits patiently*




.... look at how blatantly I've been spamming lately?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
What religion was the "German Church"? If he was asking for "Luther's" blessing (or convinced he would give his blessing) then obviously he is not talking about getting rid of Christianity, but Catholicism. "Luther" is Martin Luther, born Martin Luder in 1483 in Eisleben, Saxon, founder of the Lutheran Church. Which is a Christian religion/sect/whatever broken off from the Catholic Church.

Yes, Luther pretty much began the Protestant Reformation, although others tried unsuccessfully before him, and he didn't really aim for that - but got excommunicated and had little choice.

His movement was a real "back-to-the-basics-as-revealed-in-the-Bible" sort of thing. The Lutheran Church in Germany of the 1930's and 1940's was pretty far removed from that. It was state-supported, and therefore, subject to a certain amount of state control.

Interesting book written a few years ago by a man named Erwin Lutzer called, "Hitler's Cross". It details how Hitler intended to further transform the church in Germany - to bring it in line with his Aryan Supremacist doctrine. It would have basically ceased to be a Christian Church (unless in name only).

Hitler does not appear to have been a Christian by any stretch. But as Guillaume says, it would be presumptive of me to say that I know his eternal fate. I do not know it.

[Rían]

Valandil and Gwaimir -
Thanks, men, for your help

by Gwai
... I would bet every hair on my head that's not what she meant.

Your dark Noldor locks are safe


I'll repost your question, Ru :

by Ruinel
Valandil, what religion would you classify someone who believes in your god, believes the bible is the word of your god, and believes that Jesus was the son of god (and/or god in human form sent to Earth), yet would not be considered "saved by God's grace and trying to live in obedience"?

What religion? I don't know; does it matter? I would say that they are sad. I would try to show them love as much as I could.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally posted by Ruinel What religion was the "German Church"? If he was asking for "Luther's" blessing (or convinced he would give his blessing) then obviously he is not talking about getting rid of Christianity, but Catholicism. "Luther" is Martin Luther, born Martin Luder in 1483 in Eisleben, Saxon, founder of the Lutheran Church. Which is a Christian religion/sect/whatever broken off from the Catholic Church.

I would not classify this per son to a religion, I would classify this person as a stray sheep.

[Rían]

(answer to Ruinel's question, con't)

You probably wanted a little more than that, tho, so ... oh my, how I wish we could talk Communication by typing is so hard. Give me a call sometime, Ruinel! Let me hear your voice Lizra called me once and said I had a nice voice - I guess it's kind of low-pitched (she was probably expecting some high-pitched hysterical woman's voice ). Are you curious now to hear my voice?

OK - the demon remark - see, all through the Bible, both OTest and NTest, true belief is not merely intellectual - it is consistently characterized by heart and action. In the OTest., God mourns over how the people give him lip service, but their hearts are "far from Me". And the mourning is for the PEOPLE, for THEY are the ones hurt by this - it's not some whiny complaint. And also in the OTest, God says what he wants are things like justice, mercy, aiding the widow and orphan in their distress - IOW, action. The two - heart and action - are inextricably linked together. They are two sides of a coin. You will act out of what is in your heart.

Will you say that you believe I'm your friend? Those are only words - until it comes to a point where your life depends on something that you have to give me to do - then your TRUE belief will be apparent by what you choose to DO - if you either give it to me to do, or if you ... don't.

So as far as the demons, they:
(1) believe in my God(in the sense that they know that He exists, which is what I think you mean);
(2) believe the Bible is the word of my God; and
(3) believe that Jesus was the son of God.
They intellectually believe, that is. But true belief also involves assent to what is believed. The demons believe, but do not assent to the rightful authority of God. And assent is in the form of ... action.

And some more interesting things on the heart in the NTest - read Matthew chpt. 5, if you get a chance - Jesus mentions offenses like murder that were in the OTest, then says that ANGER is the SAME as MURDER! It's HEART God is interested in, not outward appearances, because what is in our HEART will come out in our ACTIONS. And only God can change our hearts - but ONLY with our assent.

This is the great mystery of His granting to us free will. I love dogs, and my doggie loves me! but the free-will love of my children and husband and friends is light-years above my dog's love. I asked ages ago, when we were talking about suffering, How else could God have arranged things and still given us free will? There is NO other way - the alternative is to make us robots that only do good, but the doing is worthless, because there is no free will involved. But free will love is glorious, and it is the proper and only good for us all.

And true belief in God is - well, let me quote from James 1:27: "This is pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father, to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world." True faith is made evident by works. That's the other way of saying belief leads to assent, leading to action.

So as far as "saved by God's grace and trying to live in obedience", true belief is characterized by action in accordance with what is believed. One cannot have true belief in God without "trying to live in obedience". And our attempts at obedience are based in love, because the more we come to know God, the more we love him. Read through James, and you'll see the beautiful balance between faith and works. If anyone says they are a Christian, I say to them: put your life where your words are.

I hope this is kind of along the lines of the answer you were looking for.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

What religion was the "German Church"? If he was asking for "Luther's" blessing (or convinced he would give his blessing) then obviously he is not talking about getting rid of Christianity, but Catholicism. "Luther" is Martin Luther, born Martin Luder in 1483 in Eisleben, Saxon, founder of the Lutheran Church. Which is a Christian religion/sect/whatever broken off from the Catholic Church.

No; he said "Will be established". In other words, it is not; the Lutheran Church was. If he planned to through out the Bible, which any (and I mean ANY) Christian will tell you Luther claimed as a sole rule of faith (though really, it's hard to imagine how one can base one's beliefs on the Bible as a foundation stone, if one uses one's beliefs to choose the inspired books), then it's very hard to believe that one would have any form of blessing from Luther. But, really, if you have neither Pope nor Bible, then there is really no Christianity. I expect that he is probably reaching back to Luther as a famed German who rebelled against Christianity as it was known in his time, and probably also as a fellow anti-semite.
“ If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham�

[Rían]

And just to provide the balance - I agree with the guys that you cannot look at someone and say with certainty if they are a Christian or not. Only God can truly see the heart. Many people that look quite bad can be Christian, because ANYONE can come to God at ANY time. And some people come to God that are quite low on the ladder of how we judge "good". Jesus said there's gonna be some surprises about who we see in heaven - there might even be a televangelist there! (minus the hairspray, of course )

Like I've said before, God may very well be a hundred times as happy with someone that refrains from lying one time out of 100, because they came from such a bad background, than with me telling the truth the vast majority of the time. It's easy for me to tell the truth, because of how I was raised - it takes very little effort. But the effort required of someone that has lied from the moment they could talk, and then becomes a Christian, to NOT lie once, is tremendous. And I'm sure the angels throw a party every time this person refrains from lying because of their love of, and belief in, God.

So faith is evidenced by works, and I would say even increasing works as we grow in Christ (but not only the feeding the poor type - also things like speech improvement and removal of improper pride), but people, who cannot see the heart, cannot truly judge who is a Christian and who isn't. Again, tho, the Bible says that true faith is evidenced by works - which means, of course, trying to obey.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

In answer to the question: Why do you love God? I post below an article I found a link to on a page about the Sacred Heart of Jesus:

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock...(Rev. 3:20)
It is true. I stand at the door of your heart, day and night. Even when you are not listening, even when you doubt it could be me, I am there. I await even the smallest sign of your response, even the least whispered invitation that will allow Me to enter.

And I want you to know that whenever you invite Me, I do come - always, without fail. Silent and unseen I come, but with infinite power and love, and bringing the many gifts of My Spirit. I come with My mercy, with My desire to forgive and heal you, and with a love for you beyond your comprehension - a love every bit as great as the love I have received from the Father ("As much as the Father has loved me, I have loved you.."[Jn. 15:10]). I come- longing to console you and give you strength, to lift you up and bind all your wounds. I bring you My light, to dispel your darkness and all your doubts. I come with My power, that I might carry you and all of your burdens; with My grace, to touch your heart and transform you life; and My peace I give to still your soul.

I know you through and through - I know everything about you. The very hairs of your head I have numbered. Nothing in your life is unimportant to Me. I have followed you through the years, and I have always loved you - even in your wanderings. I know ever one of your problems. I know your needs and your worries. And yes, I know all your sins. But I tell you again that I love you - not for what you have or haven't done - I love you for you, for the beauty and dignity My Father gave you by creating you in His own image. It is a dignity you have often forgotten, a beauty you have tarnished by sin. But I love you as you are, and I have shed My Blood to win you back. If you only ask Me with faith, My grace will touch all that needs changing in your life; and I will give you the strength to free yourself from sin and all its destrctive power.

I know what is in you heart - I know your lonelieness and all your hurts - the rejections, the judgements, the humiliations. I carried it all before you. And I carried it all for you, so you might share My strength and victory. I know especially your need for love - how you are thirsting to be loved and cherished. But how often have you thirsted in vain, by seeking that love selfishly, striving to fill the emptiness inside you with passing pleasures - with the even greater emptiness of sin. Do you thirst for love? "Come to Me all you who thirst..."(Jn. 7:37). I will statisfy you and fill you. Do you thirst to be cherished? I cherish you more than you can imagine - to the point of dying on a cross for you.

I thirst for you. Yes, that is the only way to even begin to describe My love for you: I THIRST FOR YOU. I thirst to love you and to be loved by you - that is how precious you are to Me. I THIRST FOR YOU. Come to Me, and I will fill your heart and heal your wounds. I will make you a new creation, and give you peace, even in all your trials. I THIRST FOR YOU. You must never doubt My mercy, My acceptance of you, My desire to forgive, My longing to bless you and live My life in you. I THIRST FOR YOU. If you feel unimportant in the eyes of the world, that matters not at all. For Me, there is no one any more important in the entire world than you. I THIRST FOR YOU. Open to Me, come to Me, thirst for Me, give Me your life - and I will prove to you how important you are to My heart.

Don't you realize that My Father already has a perfect plan to transform your life, beginning from this moment? Trust in Me. Ask me every day to enter and take charge of your life - and I will. I promise you before My Father in heaven that I will work miracles in your life. Why would I do this: Because I THIRST FOR YOU. All I ask of you is that you entrust yourself to Me completely. I will do the rest.

Even now I behold the place My Father has prepared for you in My Kingdom. Remember that you are a pilgrim in this life, on a journey home. Sin can never satisfy you, or bring the peace you seek. All that you have sought outside of Me has only left you more emtpy, so do not cling to the things of this life. Above all, do not run from Me when you fall. Come to Me without delay. When you give Me your sins, yor give Me the joy of being your Savior. There is nothing I cannot forgive and heal; so come now, and unburden your soul.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Part Two:

No matter how far you may wander, no matter how often you forget Me, no matter how many crosses you may bear in this life; there is one thing I wnat you to always remember, one thing that will never change: I THIRST FOR YOU - just as you are. You don't need to change to believe in My love, for it will be your belief in My love that will change you. You forget Me, and yet I am seeking you every moment of the day - standing at the door of your heart, and knocking. Do you find this hard to believe? Then look at the cross, look at My Heart that was pierced for you. Have you not understood My cross? Then listen again to the words I spoke there - for they tell you clearly why I endured all this for you: "I THIRST..."(Jn. 19:28). Yes, Ithirst for you - as the rest of the psalm verse I was praying says of Me: "I looked for love, and found none..."(Ps. 69:20). All your life I have been looking for your love- I have never stopped seeking to love you and be loved by you. You have tried many other things in your search for happiness; why not try opening you heart to Me, right now, more than you ever have before.

Whenever you do open the door of your heart, whenever you come close enough, you will hear Me say to you again and again, not in mere human words but in spirit: "No matter what you have done, I love you for you own sake. Come to Me with your misery and your sins, with your troubles and needs, and with all your longing to be loved. I stand at the door of your heart and knock...Open to Me, for I THIRST FOR YOU..."

When I, or I expect any Christian, reads this and contemplates it, how can they help loving God?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
I would not classify this per son to a religion, I would classify this person as a stray sheep.

*looks up list of known religions* Hmmmmmmm.... "Stray Sheep" religion doesn't seem to be here. Can you lump them into one of the known religions? Thanks.

[Ruinel]

I'll read all the stuff you posted later today, Rian. I've got about 30 First Graders coming into the classroom for Art in about
4 minutes!!! ACK!!!!
I hope you answered my question clearly. Otherwise, you know I'm going to ask the same question again until I get an answer.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ru: Considering the text he quoted, I think he was referring to Hitler; not sure about that.

Anyhow, how do YOU know there isn't a "Stray Sheep" religion? I can certainly imagine that being the case. I mean, heck, there's even a Jedi religion!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I hope you answered my question clearly. Otherwise, you know I'm going to ask the same question again until I get an answer.

Me?! Clear?!?! Does the sun shine? Is the sky blue? Do cows fly?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Rian:

Yes, good sir?

I sometimes ask for Tolkien's intercession, since he rocks and all.

What form does this asking take? IOW, how would you word your request?

As regards asking them to do something for you: Well, would you ask a friend who has Bios to do something for you? Why not one who is not inhibited by a mortal shell?

What form of help would you expect from a saint in heaven? When I ask for help from a saint on earth, I expect (1) accountability (i.e., they'll lovingly bug me about it) and (2) prayer (they'll pray to God about it). I don't see (1) for a heavenly saint, but I can see (2). What scriptural example/precedent do you see for praying to a saint in heaven?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I'll read all the stuff you posted later today, Rian. I've got about 30 First Graders coming into the classroom for Art in about
4 minutes!!! ACK!!!!

I hope they've all gone to the bathroom ...

[Valandil]

Keep going Rian... you're only behind by SEVEN!!!

Actually, what seems important is the 'ppd' count: posts-per-diem

THAT will eventually win out in the long run.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Anyhow, how do YOU know there isn't a "Stray Sheep" religion? I can certainly imagine that being the case. I mean, heck, there's even a Jedi religion!

Excellent point!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Regarding Tolkien, I usually ask for his prayers.

Do you mean to tell me that you wouldn't ask any living friend of yours for anything but that? You wouldn't, for instance ask your kids to do housework? Or to ask a friend to help you with something?

About Scripture, to me, I see this in the story of the centurion. He said that Jesus did not need to go to his house; he could but say the word and the sertavnt would be healed. He said that he also was a man who had many in submission to him; he could say to one soldier "Go" and he would go, to another "Do this" and he would do it. To me, it seems like he is saying that Jesus could just send one of his servants, i.e. angels or saints, to go and heal the servant; he could, like the centurion, say, for instance, to an angel, "Do this", and he would do it. In the context, that is the interpretation that makes the most sense to me.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I hope they've all gone to the bathroom ...

LOL!!! You remembered the kindergardeners that peed their pants in the music class, don't you? That was a different school, it seems to me that the teachers get them to the bathroom before they come to this class. Only a very very small number of kids throughout the day (3 total in all the classes) have had to go to the bathroom in the art classes.