10-28-2010, 11:39 PM | #261 | |
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44% in America, according to Pew surveys, though that includes changes in Protestant denomination at 15% and Catholic to Protestant at 5% (Prod to Catholic is so small it gets lumped in with "others"), which wiki dismisses as mere "reaffiliation". 11% is from affiliated Catholic/Protestant to "unaffiliated", which may include many people who regard themselves still as Christian. Overall, about 95% of people worldwide never change their religion- the overwhelming reason most people are Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc is that their parents were and they live surrounded by others of the same religion. That's why on those knowledge polls atheists/agnostics do better- they're people who've actually thought about religious beliefs instead of just following family tradition.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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10-28-2010, 11:56 PM | #262 | ||
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I don't believe in God the same way you don't believe in Zeus, the FSM, or the existence of the Rigellian war-fleet hiding on the dark side of the Moon...ooops, I've said too much.... But you wouldn't go around defining yourself as a believer in the non-existence of Zeus. A little bit about the history of the terms: Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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10-29-2010, 04:16 PM | #263 |
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Ah. That is more plausibe, but still problematic, since some people raised in religious households have no real connection with religion, and people raised in secular households sometimes do.
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11-10-2010, 10:59 PM | #264 | |
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But the occasional exeception does not prove the rule, it simply enforces it. Religion is a cultural inheritance that is occasionally picked up, or dropped, by those outside a give culture.
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11-12-2010, 12:26 AM | #265 |
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Which has some pretty disturbing moral implications for those who hold an exclusivist position on salvation (aka The Problem of Emeth)
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
11-12-2010, 12:36 AM | #266 | |
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11-14-2010, 03:53 AM | #267 | |
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I'm afraid I don't understnd what you're saying here, Gwai.
As far as I can see brownjenkins is simply saying that, for most people, their religious preference is something that is given by the culture they live in. While some people change their religion, and others come to a deeper understanding of their religion on their own for whatever reason- proximity to an admired example, personal tendencies to spiritual matters. the grace of God etc.- for the vast majority, it's simply following the paths laid down by their community. Otherwise, you'd have to say it's an incredible coincidence (or sign of spiritual failing) that the popuations of Muslim countries don't accept the truths of Christianity, and vice versa, and extended to all other religions and countries. AFAIK Catholicism rejects the belief found in some Protestant denominations that only those who accept Jesus will be saved- Invincible ignorance, isn't it? Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 11-14-2010 at 03:55 AM. |
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11-14-2010, 01:53 PM | #268 |
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I certainly wouldn't dispute that; doesn't even have to do with any religious idea, but is just a matter of having-eyes-open. But I thought BJ was talking, not about this religion vs. that religion, but about religion in general, a disposition towards whatever-you-want-to-call-it.
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11-15-2010, 11:33 PM | #269 |
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Interesting tidbit: I was talking to my brother, who's studying psychology, and apparently twin studies have revealed a genetic basis for religiosity.
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11-16-2010, 02:35 AM | #270 |
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Yep. It's nothing new though. Some research has shown that people with certain genetic predispositions are more inclined to experience spirituality.
This hypothesis has sloppily been given the name "the God gene", which you might have heard of.
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11-16-2010, 04:57 AM | #271 |
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Ok, now I geddit (sometimes I'm a little slow on the nuances)
One thing I would question about that is what do we mean by religiosity. I've had this argument with other non-believers, who maintain religious people are authoritarians, followers, credulous etc. I think that there are just so many ways of expressing religious/spiritual feelings that it makes the idea of some people being more 'religious' types too broad to be meaningful. Contemplatives, fire-and-brimstone fundamentalists, social reformers, aesthetic traditionalists, cheery organizers- all these are found not only in religions but other worldview/ideologies as well. I'd wonder if someone in a Marxist society who possesses the "God gene" would find it expresses itself as an awe-struck contemplation of the march of the dialectic through history, just as a spiritual Nazi would feel himself dissolving into the great Ocean of Being of the Aryan race?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 11-16-2010 at 04:59 AM. |
11-16-2010, 05:38 AM | #272 |
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GM, surely you're not saying it's actually the "Gullible Gene"??
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11-16-2010, 02:38 PM | #273 | |
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In my book, there are other much better genetic reasons for the widespread need for religion among humans. To name one, the comfort of having an ultimate authority parent figure that can take care of us and protect us is certainly hardwired in children for survival reasons. I can see how this can be translated into the foundation of a god figure as we get older and our brains can conceptualize such an abstraction. And of course the social instinct to clump into groups, support our tribe members and mistrust those unlike ourselves doesnt hurt in reinforcing religion's grip on us psychologically. This seems to work even in the most extreme conditions where common sense should lead us to better choices (ie: nazis, death cult members, muslim extremists, cathoic inquisitioners, etc.). That tells me theres something more to it then simply an overt considered cerebral act of CHOOSING ones spiritual identity. Now this isnt to say there isnt anything behind the curtain. Just saying there are ways of logically approaching the issue beyond simply the Most Unlikely Miracle explanation. But of course the self serving religious response to genetic components to religion is simply to say See! God even created in us the means to reach him! Isnt he great!! So chicken and egg...
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11-20-2010, 11:43 PM | #274 | |
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I do think though that religion is cutural/genetic. It's much like the love for one's own close family. There is no logical reason to put a sibling above anyone else we know, but we all do. And we do it because of our cultural/genetic inheritence.
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11-21-2010, 05:31 AM | #275 | ||
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"Religion" covers such a wide area that I think it has to be split up before you can have any meaningful discussion of it. For example, I think that mysticism in all religions is based on a commom human experience, sometimes called the oceanic feeling- when you lose the bonds of selfhood and feel yourself At One With It All- which may be caused by a temporary malfunction in the control system which informs us of the actual physical boundary of our body at any moment. (Not that would make it necessarily less real) This is different from the burning sense of outrage at the injustice of this world and a desire to conjure up a vision of a better world to balance it out, which is not only common to most religions- certainly the more developed ones- but persists in modern political ideology. Psychologically, the prophet Amos has more in common with Karl Marx than with St John of the Cross.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 11-21-2010 at 05:32 AM. |
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11-21-2010, 05:36 AM | #276 |
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What you end up with are all these disparate ideas, thems, stories, purposes etc that all get lumped in together and called religion.
Which makes it sometimes confusing to say "religion is..."or "religious people are..."
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
11-22-2010, 10:04 PM | #277 | |
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*sigh* It is so difficult to join in this kind of discussion, so that'll be my two cents.
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11-23-2010, 08:54 PM | #278 |
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Yes, I see what you mean, but in this case I don't think that it applies, if I'm reading Tessar's original post correctly.
To me "I don't believe in God" means "I don't have sufficient evidence to believe God exists", whereas "I believe there is no God" means "I have sufficient evidence to show that God does not exist".
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
11-23-2010, 10:34 PM | #279 |
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For most nonbelivers, I think it's mostly that belief or nonbelief isn't an important part of their lives. Strong belivers tend to have grown up in a culture that nurtures, and even requires, common belief. It's only those that grow up in more mixed cultures that delve into the philosophical choices of religion.
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07-13-2011, 05:26 PM | #280 |
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*bump* and some fun news from austria!
Austrian driver's religious headgear strains credulity: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523
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