Religious Knowledge Thread

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think he goes by Baranedhel more than Moriquendi.

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by TC
I've got a question for devout Muslims - How do you pray at the five times daily if you have a 9-to-5 or if you go to a public school?

I think I can help you here, though I'm NOT a muslim. I don't exactly understand - is the question is how come they go to school and pray 5 times a day? (you mean: they suppose to be in two places in the same time?)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I don't know, but I would think the schools would let them go do their prayers; otherwise, they'd be liable to face charges of religious discrimination.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
And any others other folk wish to ask.

Maaaarkedel, Coooooney, Aaaaarien!

ok ok I hear ya! Here's a question for Jews...I've always been told that the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah...does that mean that all the young Jewish women are waiting to see if they are the chosen one asked to carry the Messiah...like Mary?

[Agalayth]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
2.
The Jews pretty well consider Jesus to be one of the prophets, right?

Jews consider him to be a prophet, but nothing more. We don't consider him to be the son of God, but we don't disrespect him because (though some people don't realize) he was a Jew.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yep, those same idiots who voted him the thirteenth greatest American... Some people can be less than bright.

All right then, as you consider him a prophet, what is your opinion on when the Jews had him crucified? Was this another time the people of Israel strayed from the path of God, or something else? That was what I wanted to ask, but since none of the other Jews here considered him a prophet, I couldn't very wel.

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
ok ok I hear ya! Here's a question for Jews...I've always been told that the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah...does that mean that all the young Jewish women are waiting to see if they are the chosen one asked to carry the Messiah...like Mary?

im sure we never went over that in hebrew school

all i know is that we are waiting for him/her to come

[Agalayth]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
All right then, as you consider him a prophet, what is your opinion on when the Jews had him crucified? Was this another time the people of Israel strayed from the path of God, or something else? That was what I wanted to ask, but since none of the other Jews here considered him a prophet, I couldn't very wel.

The Jews never had Jesus crucified. The Romans did. We don't really study that much (we're studying the Holocaust now). But I know that Judas (I think that's his name) was the one who turned him over to the Romans. But that's only one Jew. To say that the Jews killed Jesus is a stereotype.

And about the Messiah thing, yes we believe that he hasn't come yet, and that when he comes, he will bring peace to the world. That is one reason why we don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah; the world isn't a peaceful place. We never went over the thing you said about women in Hebrew School either.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The Romans crucified him, but according to Christianity the Jews had him crucified, especially the Pharisees. Lemme see if I can dig up the story:

This passage especially is relevant:

1And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate. 2And they began to accuse him...Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man. 5And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place. 6When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked whether the man were a Galilaean. 7And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod’s jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time. 8And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him. 9Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing. 10And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him. 11And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate. 12And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.
13And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people, 14Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him: 15No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him. 16I will therefore chastise him, and release him. 17(For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.) 18And they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this man, and release unto us Barabbas: 19(Who for a certain sedition made in the city, and for murder, was cast into prison.) 20Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them. 21But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. 22And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go. 23And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed. 24And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required. 25And he released unto them him that for sedition and murder was cast into prison, whom they had desired; but he delivered Jesus to their will.

Editted slightly for relevancy.

[TinuvielChild]

Slightly off-topic, but has anyone here ever seen the play Jerusalem? It's hilarious...and it's sort of relevant to the discussion...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I never have.

[Baby-K]

Originally posted by congressmn
i AM 1/3 hINDU.


THE state is called "moksha"

ccman - if yer 1/3 Hindu, 1/5 Buddhist, but not Christian in any way - are you a shape shifter hun? Which parts of ye is what?

I have a bit of a problem - the more I read these religious threads the less I seem to fit in with a particular dogma or whatever.

So maybe some of you can help me classify myself.

I believe in God the father, the Son & the Holy Ghost, but I also think that he might not be the only godly creature. I believe that we are rewarded for goodness & punished for evil (how I do not know & how to define these I'm not quite sure of either). I believ in evolution (there is too much scientific evidence that irrefutably proves that the evolution of species have occured over a long period of time), but I also believe that God has created man (IMO God might have created a very primitive mankind that has evolved over time, according to the specific needs for survival) - I do not believe in the "Big Bang" theory as held by many people, 'cos I always come back to the question that ok - it might have happened, but who created the space & time for it to have happened in?

I believe that there is beauty & power in nature that needs to be revered, but not necessarily treated as godly creatures (to me they are all intertwined & interdependant). I also believe that Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslems etc all pray to the same god - in different ways & they call him by different names, but it's the same person. The godly beings I envision when I feel 'spiritual' are sexless, but have certain gender traits ascribed to them according to what I believe them to be involved with.

Does this make sense to anyone? I do classify myself as Christian, but some sort of 'enlightened & questioning' Christianity.

That might sound pretentious, but I will qualify the statement if required. For instance, I do not believe that homosexuality is a sin, neither is abortionor pre-marital sex. However, according to strict Christian (as well as (fundamentally) the other religions) these things are sins & we should feel oh so guilty for them & constantly repent about it (one major problem I have with Catholisism - repenting your sins to a man - I always have this vision of 'buying' redemption & according to the word of God redemption id not for sale).

perhaps I'm a pro-choice Christian?

[Agalayth]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
The Romans crucified him, but according to Christianity the Jews had him crucified, especially the Pharisees. Lemme see if I can dig up the story:

This passage especially is relevant:


Editted slightly for relevancy.

I haven't read any of those parts of the Bible that aren't in the Tanakh (the Hebrew bible). What I'm saying though is that saying that "The Jews" had Jesus crucified is a stereotype. To say that "some of the Jews in (wherever...)" had Jesus crucified isn't.

[markedel]

I have returned....

most Jews would deny Jesus is a prophet-the Talmud says some rather uncomplementary things about Jesus.
Most Jews would not echo such lines, but they would say Jesus was at most a reformist rabbi with good intentions and very good press. There is a Jewish saying that "there is one messiah every generation"- that is the messiah is ready if we're ready for it. The messiah is just an extraordinary man, no immaculate conception needed.
The requirements for Jewish prophecy are stringent, I can't list them for you, but a good translation of Maimonides "Mishnah Torah" will have a list of the criterea for an accepted prophet. Prophecy was said to be ended with the last book of the prophets Malachi.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I believe in God the father, the Son & the Holy Ghost

The godly beings I envision when I feel 'spiritual' are sexless

How so, if Father and Son? Did Jesus come as an asexual being?

I also believe that Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslems etc all pray to the same god

Not quite the same as me; I believe that Jews and Muslims worship God the Father, that Yahweh and Allah are him. Tho' not Hindus.

For instance, I do not believe that homosexuality is a sin, neither is abortionor pre-marital sex. However, according to strict Christian (as well as (fundamentally) the other religions) these things are sins & we should feel oh so guilty for them & constantly repent about it (one major problem I have with Catholisism - repenting your sins to a man - I always have this vision of 'buying' redemption & according to the word of God redemption id not for sale).

They do not say that. They say that we should repent, but not constantly, like flagellating oneself, and wailing, "O God, I am unworthy. O God, forgive me. O God, I am vile." etc. And, according to Christianity at least, once we have sincerely repented, then God has put the sin behind him, and as far as he's concerned, it doesn't exist; so if the sin does not exist, then why should we feel "oh so guilty" for it?

You're thinking indulgences. Those went out a long time ago. That's the one where you "buy" redemption. Though I feel I must point out that according to the Bible, homosexuality and pre-marital sex are wrong, and there are verses which can very easily be used to say the same of abortion.

All right, the Jewish religious leaders had him crucified. Is that better? (realise this sounds a bit sarcastic, but it's not; I'm being sincere)

Hello, markedel! Don't run off, I have more questions for you! (other Jews are, of course, free to answer them. The more the merrier! )

GW:

To Jews:
1. Do you believe in Kabbalah, and could you give a general overview of it?

2. Do you believe in a "golem"?

3. Do you believe that if one utters the name of God (the Ineffable Name) as spelled by the Hebrew consonants, that they have no place in the World to Come?

4. Could you give a general overview of your stance on animal sacrifice, if the Temple were rebuilt?

[Baby-K]

How so, if Father and Son? Did Jesus come as an asexual being?

It was meant as explanation & example of the way Christians usually refer to the holy trinity, not as a gender reference. Have you ever heard anyone refer to the trinity as the Mother, Daughter & Holy Ghost?

They do not say that. They say that we should repent, but not constantly, like flagellating oneself, and wailing, "O God, I am unworthy. O God, forgive me. O God, I am vile." etc. And, according to Christianity at least, once we have sincerely repented, then God has put the sin behind him, and as far as he's concerned, it doesn't exist; so if the sin does not exist, then why should we feel "oh so guilty" for it?

I'm referring to the whole thing around repentance - if I do not see something as a sin, why should I repent for it to be forgiven (in order for it to not exist anymore & therefore I will no longer need redemption for that specific sin)?

You're thinking indulgences. Those went out a long time ago. That's the one where you "buy" redemption. Though I feel I must point out that according to the Bible, homosexuality and pre-marital sex are wrong, and there are verses which can very easily be used to say the same of abortion.

That's why I said I had 'visions' of it - I didn't say it actually happened, I said that it was a problematic notion for me because of the images in conjured up.

As for the pre-marital sex & homosexuality references, this is exactly why I do not agree with calling myself totally Christian & why it seems by belief system (as far as religion goes) is all screwed up (if measured according to the things I've read on this board & others - it makes perfect sense to me & I guess that's all that really matters) - these things could never be wrong in my eyes, if we couldn't choose things for ourselves, why give us the gift of free will? Or should free will only be used restrictively i.e we can choose were we live, but we cannot choose our own sexuality, our own path in life?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It was meant as explanation & example of the way Christians usually refer to the holy trinity, not as a gender reference. Have you ever heard anyone refer to the trinity as the Mother, Daughter & Holy Ghost?

But again, what about when Jesus came on earth?

if I do not see something as a sin, why should I repent for it to be forgiven

Because God does.

As for the pre-marital sex & homosexuality references, this is exactly why I do not agree with calling myself totally Christian & why it seems by belief system (as far as religion goes) is all screwed up (if measured according to the things I've read on this board & others - it makes perfect sense to me & I guess that's all that really matters) - these things could never be wrong in my eyes, if we couldn't choose things for ourselves, why give us the gift of free will? Or should free will only be used restrictively i.e we can choose were we live, but we cannot choose our own sexuality, our own path in life?

We are given the gift of free will so that, basically, we may choose to follow God or not to follow him. Basically, so that we could choose between right and wrong, and not just be robots, like the Dwarves before Iluvatar gave them life. Tho' I must say that the same argument could be made to say that theft, rape, and murder are not wrong. Why give us free will, if it's wrong to choose to do such things?

Tho' I believe the most important thing about Christianity is that if you "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, you shall be saved".

[Baby-K]

But again, what about when Jesus came on earth?

GW - as I said it's the way I envision them (I know Jesus was male, but still when I think of 'him' I don't really picture a man standing there, it's more like a living energy) Arch, it's so difficult to try & bloody well explain (makes me wish there was some chord dangling from my PC that I could just plug into my brain so that you could see what I mean.

Because God does.

So we aren't allow to question anything? Damn, could someone please duct tape my mouth shut?

We are given the gift of free will so that, basically, we may choose to follow God or not to follow him. Basically, so that we could choose between right and wrong, and not just be robots, like the Dwarves before Iluvatar gave them life. Tho' I must say that the same argument could be made to say that theft, rape, and murder are not wrong. Why give us free will, if it's wrong to choose to do such things?

So are you saying that someone choosing to be homosexual is the same as someone raping a child? See now, that goes completely against what I believe.

Gwaim, do you suppose I'm the only person with the belief system I've mentioned? Or are there others? How are they classified? (this is not a sarcastic question btw - I really want to know - must have something to do with man's inherent longing to belong). So far you've told me why you disagree with some of my statements (though they were made to tell you what I believe) but you've not managed to answer the question originally posed.

Arch, this is really starting to sound bizarre & like I'm picking on you - I'm not. Maybe I should just bugger off outa this thread & leave it to people who know what they are talking about.

[markedel]

Kabbalah is Jewish mysticism. It is a certain way of approaching and interperting the Torah. My suggestion would be to go to sites like JewFAQ and the like for the basics. I know a little about Kabbalah, but not enough so I could explain it to someone who has scanty Jewish knowledge. It lets you look at Judaism is an entirely different light. It is not a belief system as such-it is in accord with orthodox Jewish practice.

I take golem with a grain of salt-folktales are interesting for what they tell, not for their factual value.

Considering that I don't strictly follow Jewish law I can't comment on the third, but to actually not have a place in "the world to come" is a fairly difficult thing to do (though it happens, or so tradition says).

I see nothing wrong with animal sacrifice, I eat meat after all. There are varying interpertations (non-orthodox and orthodox) over how the Temple will operate when it is rebuilt. Some de-emphasize animal sacrifice (notably Maimonides), some don't.

And I wouldn't say Jewish religious authorities crucified Jesus, though they might not have minded-lots of "false messiahs" got crucified by Romans with the aquiescence of collaberationist Jews. The Pharisees (the predecessors and basis of rabbinic Judaism) were not looked on that favorably by the establishment. Such charismatic individuals were percieved to be a threat to Rome's authority. The Jewish revolt some 30 years after Jesus' death failed in part because of Jewish disunity, not just because of Rome's legions. In fact the rabbis say the second temple was destroyed because of "Sinat Chinam" roughly translated in bitter internal strife.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I take then, markedel, that you believe that it is real?

According to Christianity, the Sanhedrin and the high priests (maybe more groups) paid Judas, with the money from the coffers of the Temple, to turn Jesus over, if I remember correctly. If this is not the religious authorities having him killed, what is?

So we aren't allow to question anything?

We are, by all means. It just seems a bit arrogant to me to hold one's own opinions over those of God (or, as the case may be, gods).

-sigh- No, that is not what I am saying at all. I wish people would stop taking what I say and twisting it to make me sound like a monster. I'm getting very tired of it. I said that the same argument could be used to validate theft, rape, and murder, not that they were the same thing. It would be ridiculous to say that this means that theft and murder are the same thing, so why say it means that child-rape and homosexuality are, if not to try and make me seem bad?

Yes, there are people who just throw the biblical teachings out of the window and say it's outdated; I'm not entirely sure if this is what you mean, though. I don't think there's really a term for them, tho'. Many people claim to be Christian, yet believe that there is no God; Father, Son, or Holy Ghost. To me, this is as ridiculous as Modern Satanism taking such a name, when it does not believe in Satan. There are some who try to make Christianity into pantheism; some who try to make it into New Age. I'm certain that the first of those three doesn't fit you, and I don't think the others do. I don't really know if there is a name for those who do not accept the Word of God, but look to themselves for Truth, yet still believe that there is a Trinity Godhead. In a sentence: Sorry, I don't know what they would be classified as. But I'm sure there are numerous others like you; in a general sense, I believe that the majority of those who call themselves Christians are. In this general sense (i.e. those who do not believe in the Bible), these would be called "liberal" Christians. But in a more specific sense, I have no idea what one with your beliefs would be. Sorry.