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#261 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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I'm intrigued that your diminished sense of offense falls short as soon as the offense is against the more distinctly catholic parts of Xtianity. Particularly since Catholicism, and even catholicism, has always been seen as rather an outsider religion in the USA; shouldn't that again trigger the "home team" reaction, or were you raised Roman/Anglo-Catholic? Or, is it just that ideas like transubstantiation are ridiculous and superstitious, and so an affront against them is not problematic? EDIT: just to clarify, this is a serious question, and I am genuinely curious, not trying to be contentious. I'm just not sure how to frame the question in more neutral terms!
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 09-16-2010 at 08:14 PM. |
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#262 |
Best Ex-Administrator ever
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Ireland
Posts: 60,547
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OoOoh, I heard PZ Myers lecture and met him once. Lovely man. I hope to go into evo-Devo one day. I love the synthesis of the two most fascinating areas of biology.
The abuse he endured from religious fanatics over their insane superstition was utterly contemptible. |
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#263 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Quote:
![]() I take it then that you consider his deliberate affront to aforementioned insane superstition altogether unobjectionable? Do you feel the same way about the Terry Jones Koran-burning issue?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 09-16-2010 at 09:20 PM. |
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#264 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
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Not only the media though- everybdy from Obama to Palin condemned this guy.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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#265 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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#266 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
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A group of, say, feminist ex-Muslims burning the Koran would be far more acceptable to me. (Being raised Anglican, I stand by my former church's responding to the issue of transubstantiation with a resounding and resolute "maybe".)
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 09-16-2010 at 10:33 PM. |
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#267 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#268 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#269 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Then it does boil down to the "ridiculous superstition" line. Is it not crackers to think dead trees mashed up and splashed with ink matter, then?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 09-17-2010 at 09:25 AM. |
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#270 | |
Best Ex-Administrator ever
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Ireland
Posts: 60,547
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Quote:
Of course I find it altogether unobjectionable, why would I not? There is absolutely no significance in desecrating a petty wafer. Sure, it's pointless and small waste of time and energy, but so are most things, including most people's lives, particularly those who get upset over their insane superstition. I feel similarly about this madcap Pastor and his books. I'm generally opposed to the burning of books on general aesthetic principle, as it's such an uncultured philistine thing to do, but there is absolutely no special reason why he shouldn't be allowed to do whatever he wants with his own property. As I understand it, Americans are quite privileged in the history of the humanity in that they have these kind of freedoms, so I don't understand why incidents such as these are so controversial. |
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#271 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Everybody needs to chill the feck out on the "insults to their religion" front. It seems a very popular sport amongst all sorts of denominations to spot offense and complain about it.
IRex make a good point about the "home team". These people may be seen to represent us, so we should be more concerned about their behaviour. For me, it's my lack of familiarity with transubstantiation and familiarity with the historical cultural significance of book-burning that would make it seem like a particularly offensive act. Last edited by The Gaffer : 09-17-2010 at 09:57 AM. |
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#272 | ||
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
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I agree that there are people who will deliberately go looking for things to gripe about, but in this case it's more significant that the two men we've been discussing are deliberately doing something with the intent of being offensive. It's one thing for someone to accidentally drop a book in a fire, or accidentally end up with a "cracker" and then toss it in the trash because they don't know what it is. But it's quite different to take something that you know is significant to someone else, and intentionally destroy it simply to get a reaction out of the other person. If you approve of that, then you are no better than a willful vandal. It's the same thing as taking a beloved photo from your grandmother and ripping it up in front of her. Even if she has other copies of the photo, the fact that you intentionally ripped it up to hurt her feelings is the point of contention, not whether she has other copies of it. For example, what is the point of taking the host and dropping it into the trash purposefully? What is the point of burning the books in this case? It is vandalism for no other reason than to get an angry reaction. Quote:
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#273 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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However I would like to see people on all sides being a bit more calm about this sort of thing. And the media not pouring petrol on the flames would be a help too. |
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#274 | ||
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
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People place very serious meaning on the Koran/Bible/etc. and Catholics place an enormous, almost untoppable, amount of meaning on those crackers. The fact that the crackers mean nothing to you does not make them mean any less to the people that value them. Take the $50 example. If you rip up a $50 bill in front of a starving man on the streets it's going to mean a lot to him. If you rip up $50 in front of a starving man in the middle of a jungle with nowhere to spend that money it means nothing to him. Carry that example onwards and I think most people would agree that ripping up the $50 in front of the starving man in America is incredibly cruel to him, while ripping it up in front of jungle-boy is not cruel to him. Desecrating a host is incredibly cruel to Catholics because they place such meaning in it, and thus if you put any merit in the feelings of others that makes it a cruel act for you to (intentionally) perform. I suspect that the real reason people see burning a Koran as bad is actually out of fear. Destroy a host and you have a flurry of media attention, maybe a few death threats (directed towards one person) from some crazies, and that's about it. People are afraid that burning a Koran could mean suicide bombers, or other things, killing many people for the actions of one man (or a very small group of people). I know I'd be more cautious (i.e. "respectful") of the guy holding a knife with a crazy look in his eye saying, "I will stab you if you do that," than I might be of a man saying, "Oh, please don't do that!" Quote:
Agreed. |
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#275 | |
Best Ex-Administrator ever
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Ireland
Posts: 60,547
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Quote:
He had the freedom to do whatever he wanted with with his own property. He committed no crime whatsoever. If other individuals got upset about it that's just tough. They have to grow up and learn that freedom of expression sometimes mean other individuals sometimes do or say things you happen to find personal distastefully or offensive. Nobody - Nobody, has any special right not to be offended by another persons freedom of expression. The only supposed consequences Myers and this pastor were the reactions and actions of other people, something they have absolutely no control or responsibility for. Some people find their actions funny and satirical, even righteous; others find it (although I find it unfathomable myself) horrifying and inflammatory. All of them have their rights to their opinions, and their modes of expressing it. |
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#276 | |||||
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
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That's like holding up a cardboard gun in a market place and then being shocked if someone disapproves, or if a police officer tackles you to the ground. How dare they intrude on your right to wave a piece of cardboard around.... Quote:
That's what I said, but then you said that no one had the right to express their disapproval of seomeone else's right to express their opinion. It sounds as though you are contradicting yourself. |
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#277 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Quote:
An intriguing picture of an answer seems to be emerging; it's looking like it is precisely because the Koran is a book, and as such burning it violates an "iconography" and a "sense of the sacred" which is shared throughout Western culture, by all but the most backwards conservatives. The reason people are reacting is not not in fact because it is a Koran and its destruction is offensive to Muslims, but because it is a book and its destruction is on some level offensive to them. Nobody cares about crackers, so the Myers incident does not cause a similar personal offense. So much for religious pluralism; it is actually the "sanctity" of an Idea, of the written word that motivates people to respond like this. Of course, cultural realities and concerns are extremely complicated and nuanced matters, and this can only be one piece of the puzzle. Still, it's an interesting one, at least to me. Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 09-17-2010 at 02:40 PM. |
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#278 | ||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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So let me ask you this, if a non catholic (or a non christian) accepts a communion wafer (and consumes it) is it a damnable sin? Is it wrong? What are the rules? I know Ive had my fair share of communion wine. I happen to love the chalices... Although I must say this whole communion things reminds me of a Family Guy episode somehow... Quote:
I guess you could call it ironic that as an agnostic today, I DO feel like the home team when a muslim sees a christian american doing something stupid. Call it the cultural home team if not the literal home team. Perhaps it has more to do with being an american then a christian.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#279 | |
Best Ex-Administrator ever
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Ireland
Posts: 60,547
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Quote:
They're not responsible for the actions of other individuals at all. This is an elementary fact. They're only responsible for what they do, not what other people do, as they can only control and affect what they do. They have no moral responsibility whatsoever for the actions of individuals they can't control. No more than they can influence the actions of the Pope or the Queen or their Postman. If there is ever a principle that underpins any moral or legal theory that's it. Your situation with with toy gun is not analogous at all. The Koran Burning and Cracker desecration incidents were about freedom of expression. Wielding an imitation weapon in public is something different altogether. No one could ever construe that as being anything but inherently threatening and dangerous. |
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#280 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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I don't really know what to say. I think I've been clear. The cracker doesn't mean anything [to me]. It's just a goddamned cracker. A book? It's a more powerful symbol. It can symbolise knowledge, fiction, incredibly persistent memes. A cracker is just... a cracker. You eat, you crap. What would baby jesus think about you crapping him out, anyway?
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 09-17-2010 at 03:19 PM. |
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