Animal morality: are humans merely animals?

[brownjenkins]

well, if your father ever posts or publishes his ideas, i would be interested in reading them... really

i'm a sceptic by nature... if i was standing before god, i'd be looking for the little guy behind the black curtain

but i do appreciate good research and interesting theories... i read a book long ago that i can not remember the title of, by a hindu man i believe... who interpreted the book of revelations from an astrological perspective (with references to constellations and such implied by the text, along with corresponding dates)... and he also brought into play the fact that astrology was a major 'science' back in those times... it was an interesting perspective, whether believable or not

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i disagree... i believe we do all the time... imagine, for instance, if there were no pictures of the atrocities that happened to the prisoners in iraq, but everything else was the same... we'd be talking about 'alleged acts by US soldiers', and i am sure there would be more than a few who did not believe they occured at all... and if a few thousand years from now, those who did not believe became the dominant force in our world... the facts of what had actually happened might conveniently disappear from our histories... it would not be the first time... add to this the fact that there were no methods of recording events like video or stills two thousand years ago, and that very few could read or write... there may have been hundreds of illiterate on the streets that said 'this is a jesus stuff is bunch of camel dung', but it was the believers who wrote the history

Unbelievers like Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger and Jewish religious leaders also wrote history. From their accounts and other ancient nonChristian sources, here in the words of Edwin Yamauchi, "We would know that first, Jesus was a Jewish teacher; second, many people believed that he performed healings and exorcisms; third, some people believed he was the Messiah; fourth, he was rejected by the Jewish leaders; fifth, he was crucified under Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius; sixth, despite his shameful death, his followers, who believed that he was alive, spread beyond Palestine so that there were multitudes of them in Rome by A.D. 64; and seventh, all kinds of people from cities and countryside-men and women, slave and free-worshiped him as God."

Edwin Yamauchi's own achievements are impressive. After earning a bachelor's degree in Hebrew and Hellenistics, he received master's and doctoral degrees in Mediterranean studies from Brandeis University.

He has been awarded eight fellowships, from the Rutgers Research Council, National Endowment for the Humanities, the American Philosophical Society, and others. He has studied twenty-two languages, including Arabic, Chinese, Egyptian, Russian, Syrian, Ugaritic, and even Commanche.

He has delivered seventy-one papers before learning societies; lectured at more than one hundred seminaries, universities, and colleges, including Yale, Princeton, and Cornell; served as chairman and then president of the Institute for Biblical Research and president of the Conference on Faith and History; and published eighty articles in thirty-seven scholarly journals.

He has made other academic achievements as well. Just mentioning some of them to show the authority of the words I was quoting. If you wish to debate various ones of them, I can provide some sources and evidence.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

they may have had ulterior motives... the usual ones of establishing a belief system to rebel against authority fits the bill...

Not if you look at what we know of the witnesses' characters, in my opinion. Look at the beliefs they were holding to, the teachings of Jesus that supported an incredibly strong code of morality. Holding to these teachings of Jesus cost them their lives.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

or they may have truely believed it themselves... though it did not actually happen...

Read your New Testament again . The occurrences they claimed to have experienced were pretty extraordinary. I think the disciples would have known whether they occurred or not .

Who would give up his life for something he knew was a lie? Giving your life up for something you believe is true is hard enough and requires a fierce loyalty.

We know even from the Jewish leaders' writings from that time that Jesus did miracles. In their writings they called him a sorcerer who practiced black magic. If they could have denied his miracles, you can bet they would have.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

christianity is far from the only religion in our world... by your argument, i could say, the koran must be true... look at all the people who believe in it, even at the cost of their own lives...

Yes, people believe things and die for them. It's hard doing that- laying down your life is not something one does lightly . But the disciples of Jesus claimed they saw Jesus resurrected. They ate with him, walked with him and talked with him. Then they saw him ascend into the clouds and vanish from view. The disciples knew whether what they experienced was true or not. There could have been no question in their minds whether they were making up these events and they were lies or whether they were true occurrences. They then were willing to lay down their lives for the truth of these claims. Who would lay down his life for what he knows is false?

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

there is also a huge amount of evidence for the existance of mohammed... including prophecies, second hand accounts and all the rest

What do you mean by 'evidence for Mohammed'? I'm certain he existed. I've written a report on him and the rise of Islam :P. When you mentioned prophecies, you need to be able to show that the documents are dated to before the events they describe will happen. I can't compare between Islam and Christianity, for I don't know enough about Islam or how comparable they are, or what evidence exists or how good it is. I doubt you do either.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

many jews i know believe that christ existed... they just see him as one of many 'human' prophets

Of course they do. What does that show? Have they seen the evidence?

You can't just lump Christianity together with Judaism or Islam by saying they all contain the same kinds of things, when you don't know what evidence there is for any of the three or how compelling it is.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i'd like to see the evidence on that

Sorry, I'm not willing to provide it. I'm not making an argument. When my father publishes his book, you can read the entire case, and I encourage you to. It's very fascinating stuff.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

well, if your father ever posts or publishes his ideas, i would be interested in reading them... really

Good! I'll certainly advertise it on Entmoot when it's released, however many years down the line that is .

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i'm a sceptic by nature... if i was standing before god, i'd be looking for the little guy behind the black curtain

Fine. I'm actually certain you won't be, at that point. The infinite eternal God exposed to man isn't someone that'll be easy to doubt. That view of mine doesn't matter though . I have no problem with your being a sceptic. Searching for information and desiring evidence is fine and good. It's important too to keep an open mind, though. I know Christianity could easily seem crazy and wild to someone who has never experienced it. We believe in miracles and amazing events having occurred and we claim that they still occur. Only a few days ago I myself saw a vision from the Lord, and I've also in personal experience seen prophecies fulfilled and the spiritual gift of knowledge at work. Like I said before, after the experiences I've had, for myself to stop being a Christian I'd have to be the most foolish of men. Continuing to believe is much, much easier.

Do you want to experience God, brownjenkins? Before I met him, I wondered whether he was knowable or possible to experience. I was too afraid to set a meeting or anything because of my fear that my religion would collapse. I feared that God would not show up at the meeting and my religion would be shown to be false hope. That was before I met Jesus and he transformed me. I wanted to meet God, but I was too afraid to approach him. He was gracious and met me. It says in the scripture that "he who seeks finds, he who asks receives and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." If you want to experience God, if you want him to prove himself to you in the way that will satisfy you, it's possible for him to do that. It's necessary to lay aside your predispositions against his existence, to be open minded and ask that if he's real and a person, he'll speak to you. That needs to be asked as a prayer. If you want to experience him, I'll pray with you as well. You said I may have a good point that to approach the spiritual you need to use spiritual methods, just as to reach the physical one needs physical methods. Are you willing to take this chance? The risk of course is that I'm right and your life, and lifestyle, will be changed.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i do appreciate good research and interesting theories... i read a book long ago that i can not remember the title of, by a hindu man i believe... who interpreted the book of revelations from an astrological perspective (with references to constellations and such implied by the text, along with corresponding dates)... and he also brought into play the fact that astrology was a major 'science' back in those times... it was an interesting perspective, whether believable or not

I know some people do things like that with Revelation. Charles Manson interpreted himself and some of his followers as being people prophesied as coming in Revelation. Nowadays a huge number of Christians are busily calculating End Times predictions. I still don't have much of a stance on Revelation myself, though I'm highly interested in it. I've temporarily forbidden myself from reading Revelation or other End Times prophecies that are visible throughout the rest of the Bible.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Unbelievers like Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the Younger and Jewish religious leaders also wrote history. From their accounts and other ancient nonChristian sources, here in the words of Edwin Yamauchi, "We would know that first, Jesus was a Jewish teacher; second, many people believed that he performed healings and exorcisms; third, some people believed he was the Messiah; fourth, he was rejected by the Jewish leaders; fifth, he was crucified under Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius; sixth, despite his shameful death, his followers, who believed that he was alive, spread beyond Palestine so that there were multitudes of them in Rome by A.D. 64; and seventh, all kinds of people from cities and countryside-men and women, slave and free-worshiped him as God."

i haven't read him, but solely due to that fact of his frequent use of 'some people believed', i take him to be a good historian... he is saying, it is possible, maybe even likely... but not a fact

Who would give up his life for something he knew was a lie? Giving your life up for something you believe is true is hard enough and requires a fierce loyalty.

thousands of other devotees to religions other than christianity have done the same thing... does this make them true? i agree that one has to believe something is true to give up their lives for it... but this does not make it true

We know even from the Jewish leaders' writings from that time that Jesus did miracles. In their writings they called him a sorcerer who practiced black magic. If they could have denied his miracles, you can bet they would have.

in the 1600s respectible leaders claimed that others used magic in order to turn people against them... one way to defeat an upstart is to discredit him... another way is to claim that they are exactly who they claim to be, and as such will bring disruption and danger to everyone's lives... fear of the romans was a vaild threat to the jewish leaders of the time

Who would lay down his life for what he knows is false?

again, to believe something is true does not make it so

I can't compare between Islam and Christianity, for I don't know enough about Islam or how comparable they are, or what evidence exists or how good it is. I doubt you do either.

i certainly don't know everything there is to know about any of the world's religions... which is why i am leary to put any as 'the truth' when it comes to their mystical implications

You can't just lump Christianity together with Judaism or Islam by saying they all contain the same kinds of things, when you don't know what evidence there is for any of the three or how compelling it is.

i'm willing to bet that a hindu could make just as compelling and argument as you could for the beliefs he holds to be true... and i appreciate your knowledge of your particular faith... but it is only one of many

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Do you want to experience God, brownjenkins?

not really, i could not be happier with my life as it is (well, without getting into the nitty-gritty details that is )

i prefer the little things, family, kids, friends, etc.

if there is a god, i'm sure i'll have plenty of time to get to know him (or the other guy) when i'm through here

i dabbled in a lot of religious teachings in my younger years... and was drawn more to the buddhist ideaology than any other... it chimed in the best with my view of life... but in the end, i have no desire for 'something more'... so i stick to what i know and love... the people around me

including many here at the moot, of course

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i haven't read him, but solely due to that fact of his frequent use of 'some people believed', i take him to be a good historian... he is saying, it is possible, maybe even likely... but not a fact

He says that this is what these people believed. He is saying that historians and others that were non-believers recorded these things. That doesn't mean he's saying Christianity is true. He's telling what the corroborative evidence to the New Testament says. You must admit, it's extensive.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

thousands of other devotees to religions other than christianity have done the same thing... does this make them true? i agree that one has to believe something is true to give up their lives for it... but this does not make it true

I'm glad you agree with me that they believed in the truth of what they were saying. Now look again at their claims. The apostles claimed that they saw Jesus resurrected many times. They claimed that as a group they walked and talked with him, that he ate with them and cooked a meal for them, that he had a resurrected glorious body and that he ascended.

(Gets excited again) Now we're getting somewhere. Those experiences were some of what they died for. I agree with you that believing something doesn't make it true (glad to hear you're not relativistic, by the way ); now look at what they believed they experienced.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

in the 1600s respectible leaders claimed that others used magic in order to turn people against them... one way to defeat an upstart is to discredit him... another way is to claim that they are exactly who they claim to be, and as such will bring disruption and danger to everyone's lives... fear of the romans was a vaild threat to the jewish leaders of the time

The Jewish leaders didn't claim that Jesus was the Messiah. I must confess, I don't fully understand what you're saying here.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i certainly don't know everything there is to know about any of the world's religions... which is why i am leary to put any as 'the truth' when it comes to their mystical implications

There are some major differences between Christianity and other religions, though. One of them, I've heard, is that Christianity is the only religion where God actually comes down to man and makes himself known to them. In all the others, man works his way up to God. RÃ*an could probably better answer you on this then I could, though.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i'm willing to bet that a hindu could make just as compelling and argument as you could for the beliefs he holds to be true... and i appreciate your knowledge of your particular faith... but it is only one of many

Hmm. Yes. Maybe. I'll be trundling off to fetch RÃ*an about now . . .

[Fat middle]

Is just me, or are we getting out of topic?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

not really, i could not be happier with my life as it is (well, without getting into the nitty-gritty details that is )

i prefer the little things, family, kids, friends, etc.

if there is a god, i'm sure i'll have plenty of time to get to know him (or the other guy) when i'm through here

i dabbled in a lot of religious teachings in my younger years... and was drawn more to the buddhist ideaology than any other... it chimed in the best with my view of life... but in the end, i have no desire for 'something more'... so i stick to what i know and love... the people around me

including many here at the moot, of course

Of whom I'm certain I'm at the top of the list .

Okay. It doesn't seem like this discussion's going to get anywhere though, in that case. So far you've been answering everything very rationally, I've been delighted to find. If you're not going to be convinced anyway though, and don't really have an open mind, then you're going to end up deciding against Christianity no matter how well I establish its case. Right?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

Is just me, or are we getting out of topic?

We are are are! This is all somewhat related to the main topic. In order to know whether humans are greater than the animals in that humans have souls and animals don't, first you have to know whether or not souls exist. That led to all this . Should I quit?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

Is just me, or are we getting out of topic?

what does that have to do with animal morality?!?

yes, terribly off-topic i believe

time to head out anyway lief, thanks for the provoking conversation

on the rest... i never rule anything out, i just argue it to death

[Lief Erikson]

(Dies) (and goes to heaven )

[Fat middle]

I do think it was an interesting excursus, and obviously related to the topic, but perhaps it was taking too long, with the risk of loosing the topic

[Lief Erikson]

It's been a fun discussion. Thanks for your attention!

Oh, before my ghost departs from this site I'd love to hear RÃ*an's answer to that one single question of yours, brownjenkins. I'll hang around waiting for that, before returning to the main subject. Do you have any problem with that, Fat Middle?

[Rían]

Which question was that?

[Lief Erikson]

What sets Christianity apart from other religions. I said what I've heard, that Christianity is the only religion where God comes down to man rather then man working his way up to God. Could you elaborate?

[Rían]

I'd definitely start another thread for that one. Asking me to elaborate is dangerous!

I've been thinking about starting a thread "why do you believe what you believe?" or something like that for awhile now. Maybe I'll finally do it - my husband is in Peru until Monday so I'll have some more time to Moot.

(he's a board member of a fabulous children's charity organization that works both locally and worldwide)

Let me think about it ...

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'd definitely start another thread for that one. Asking me to elaborate is dangerous!

I've been thinking about starting a thread "why do you believe what you believe?" or something like that for awhile now. Maybe I'll finally do it - my husband is in Peru until Monday so I'll have some more time to Moot.

(he's a board member of a fabulous children's charity organization that works both locally and worldwide)

Let me think about it ...

Okay, you think about it. I will probably be somewhat involved. Particularly if brownjenkins is, to continue our discussion. We'll see. However, I'm considering checking out Gwaimir's Christianity debate yahoo site, so I may be strapped for time. School's starting again soon also. :-I

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Okay. Is the fact that they were fulfilled quaint?

What does your common sense say?

I agree. I found it a very engaging read, though because of various activities I was going through I had to read it more slowly then I would have liked . Have you read many books on the subject of evidence for or against Christianity?

Leif, I find Christian prophesies meaningless, fulfilled or unfufilled.

My common sense tells me not to spend too much time debating certain topics with certain christians.

I haven't read too many books on that subject...once I was convinced that christianity was mythology, I turned to more intriguing reading material.

[Lief Erikson]

Okay.