11-21-2002, 08:09 PM | #261 |
Elven Warrior
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" We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven - a senile benevolence who, as they say, "liked to see young people enjoying themselves," and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, "a good time was had by all."
hey, if that place existed i would worship god and praise him for his goodness without hesitation. thats what kind of heaven i would create if i were a god. no needless suffering, killing, raping, all to prove some ridiculous point. unfortunately that place doesnt exist, so ill just have to make do here on earth. i just had a quick question. i've never really understood what purpose jesus' death served. before jesus, we could go to heaven or hell. after jesus' death we could still go to heaven or hell. what changed? i only posted the scripture because it seemed like the thing to do here........
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. Last edited by MasterMothra : 11-21-2002 at 11:14 PM. |
11-22-2002, 04:45 AM | #262 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Quote:
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It leaves the inhabitants of Arda with one question though: What exactly is the will of Eru?
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11-22-2002, 12:59 PM | #263 |
The Insufferable
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I had posted a response to mothra and artanis, but for some reason my browser saw fit to refresh the page, and I lost it.
Nuts.
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11-22-2002, 06:27 PM | #264 | ||
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(1) I would say that Jesus' death for our sins was planned from before time (on our earth). The Bible clearly states Jesus was with God from the beginning and was part of the creation process. Because of the whole free will thing, God clearly envisioned the possibility of people making evil choices and needing a way to be reconciled to Him, and, in an extremely simplistic phrase, God and Jesus "worked things out" before creation (and in that sense, as I stated several pages ago, God indeed "took responsibility" for the possibility of evil) by "planning" redemption thru Jesus. And God certainly knew that Jesus would "make good" on His promise. Now, however, since the earth is "in" time, there must be an actual time that would be the "best" time for Jesus' incarnation, life and death on earth, and indeed, the Bible says that Jesus came "at the right time" (or some similar wording). So I think that it's not that the death occured at an actual time, but that it was "agreed upon" before time. (2) Now a reason why it would need to be 'visible' to people, as opposed to happening the day after the very first sin (presumably before writing had been developed, and certainly before TV!), is that it shows the horrible effects of sin. Crucifixion is an ugly death. Sin is ugly. And that's why it happened at the point of time that it did. (3) Another reason would be the fulfillment of prophesy - crucifixion hadn't been 'invented' when some of the very graphic prophicies of Christ's death were written. So again, because it happened at a certain time, there were written records available to compare to prophesies. SO - #1 is the main answer - His death was just a fulfillment of the agreement that makes salvation possible. #s 2 and 3 are some minor points. Any other opinions/thoughts, anyone? Did that make any sense, MM?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-23-2002, 12:02 AM | #265 | ||
The Insufferable
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#1 You want a universe where anone can do anything they want, as long as they're enjoying themselves, and that's Ok? #2 You also want a universe without killing, raping, pillaging, and whatnot. Now, apply quality #1 to quality #2, and ask yourself-don't you think there will always be people who will enjoy killing, Raping, and Pillaging? And since you want everyone to enjoy themselves, you've basically given them carte blanche to do whatever they feel like at the moment. Contrast that, on the other hand, to what christianity tells you is the case: God's plan for the universe is that all should choose, of their own free will, Goodness and love. This, my friend, is the universe in which there is no suffering. Perhaps RÃ*an will help me out with a Lewis quote. I believe it is in the last chapter of 'christian behavior', where he says something like "while christianity at first seems to be all about rules and morality, it leads you past that and into a world where everybody is filled with goodness, but they don't call it goodness because they're not paying any attention to it." Quote:
Really, it makes sense, because christ died 'once for all'-not 'for everybody living now' or 'for everybody from this point on'. For every human past, present, and future. Now, as to why he died at all, that is both easier and more difficult. To redeem sinful humans from death, is the obvious answer. But it goes deeper than that. Part of it is that God is just (or OMNIJust ) meaning that he takes evil seriously. He won't just dismiss it-there's a price to pay. Unfortunately, as imperfect, sinful beings, there's no way we can satisfy that price-how can an imperfect being satisfy the demands of perfection? Nothing. Only a perfect being can do that. And so God, being loving (OMNILOVING! ) , becomes/begets jesus christ, the perfect man who satisfies the demands of justice on our behalf.
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11-23-2002, 12:09 AM | #266 |
The Buddy Rabbit
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Enough with the God-Bothering............start a new thread for whatever-you-find-sacred sake
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11-23-2002, 12:35 AM | #267 |
The Insufferable
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*ahem*
It's only courtesy to anser someone's questions.
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11-23-2002, 12:40 AM | #268 | |
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11-23-2002, 01:04 AM | #269 |
The Insufferable
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Take note that the person doing the diverting is the same person that started the thread.
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11-23-2002, 02:03 AM | #270 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Well, this is also a thread about the God of middle earth and one of the highest angels, so it's hard to NOT bring "religion" into it; in fact, it is entirely appropriate, IMO. And as Wayfarer said, we were answering a question. You're welcome to bring some POV's from other religions into this thread, if you want to - I would be interested to see things like that.
Now if we brought religion into one of my favorite threads, Writing in Tengwar, that would be a bit strange. I think you'll see that no one has mentioned religion over there. BTW, Coney, your avatar made me think of the whole flat earth thing in Tolkien - did you know that he changed his mind in his later years and decided to go with a round earth, and Sun and Moon created before the Two Trees? Perhaps your avatar was a kind of transition stage between flat and round earth!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-23-2002, 02:06 AM | #271 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I can't find my copy of Christian Behavior - drat, must have loaned it out. I lose so many Lewis books that way! But that sounds exactly like something he would write. Have you read Problem of Pain, Wayfarer and Lief (or anyone else?)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-23-2002, 02:17 AM | #272 |
The Insufferable
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I have not, aside from selected portions. I'm curently looking for that, The Weight of Glory, The Abolition of Man, et al.
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11-23-2002, 02:29 AM | #273 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Prob of Pain is one of my all-time favorite Lewis books. You should check into the CS Lewis thread in Gen Lit - have you seen it? I finally found someone who has read Till We Have Faces - a really wild Lewis book, with some incredible insights. I didn't know any one else that had ever read that book before, and crickhollow has! The only other person in the WORLD that I know of that has read that book. I had to order it from the publisher.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-23-2002, 06:08 AM | #274 | |
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I would not like this thread to be a discussion about religion/Christianity in general. I would prefer to keep the Christian God out. But it's not up to me to decide.
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11-23-2002, 11:57 AM | #275 |
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"Now, apply quality #1 to quality #2, and ask yourself-don't you think there will always be people who will enjoy killing, Raping, and Pillaging? And since you want everyone to enjoy themselves, you've basically given them carte blanche to do whatever they feel like at the moment."
what is heaven then? are we free from all this in heaven? jesus's death didnt change anything. that leads to the question, "what was he trying to change?". why was there a need for the new testament? was the old test wrong? its ridiculous to even think that the bible was divinely inspired. the hypocrisy and contradictions are numerous. thats why i dont take it says seriously. there are some good thoughts to live by in psalms, but most of it if laughable at best.
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
11-23-2002, 12:50 PM | #276 |
im quite stupid
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My views upon relgion are pretty well known and most likly quite offensive to some. I feel relgion has never given anything to the world except hardship and suffering and admitally in cockermouth a very cheep cafe that does nice baggetts but bar the nice cafe that does nice baggets it has provided a lot of pain and anguish.
As for jesus dieing for our sins surely that is basically a move away from all other christian belifs such as we are responiable for our own actions etc. And what right does someone have to claim judgement over you if you dont acknoledge there authority? now back to the thread. Did he make him evil? No i doubt the way i read the situation is quite simple to make someone whole they have to have certain elements along with godness and light we also all have a dark side and are all capable of evil to understand evil we have to have a bit of evil within ourselves. now for melkor he was once good but he had a free will and ambition (surely the most common road to evil) he wished to rule and be different from the valar. The basic of the valar is an odd one as all are considered to be equal but they are not if you so folow me as no one is equal.
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11-23-2002, 08:40 PM | #277 | ||||
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Response to MasterMothra:
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So yes, we do have the possibility of evil in heaven. But now let's think again about what happens to Christians on Earth. Christ died, and in doing so he opened up the door for people to come to know him. When they choose to step through that door, Christ begins the work of rooting out all that is evil in their lives and replacing it with his nature. When he does this, the inclination of the individual is set toward God, and the nature of the person changes to righteousness over sin. So sin is possible in heaven, but there won't be any sin. For God won't allow any into heaven which have sin in them, but only his own. Quote:
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But the New Testament was for a different purpose, to my thinking. It was largely about a different subject, which is Christ's life here on Earth. These are major generalizations, and I'm sure many people could put these things better than I have. But the New Testament wasn't a replacement of the Old Testament, as the name might imply. It is a continuation of it, but about different things. Quote:
Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-23-2002 at 08:53 PM. |
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11-23-2002, 08:46 PM | #278 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Response to Sween:
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When someone becomes a Christian, it means they have more responsibility, not less. For now they are witnesses of God's truth, and must be right with him, and acting according to his will. Quote:
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Oh, one thing I did want to mention is that I agree with all of the opinions you've stated about the reasons for Melkor's being evil. I also agree with you that the Valar aren't equal. It's just like humanity in that way, I suppose. Some humans are greater than others in power. Some humans are more beautiful than others, but those others might be more skillful at dancing or something than the other. Some people are less talented and some are more talented, some are more bright and some less bright. I guess it's the same with the Valar, and there are actually quite a lot of evidences to point to the truth of this perspective. If anyone disagrees with this point of view, I'd be happy to start bringing up these examples . To Artanis: Well Artanis, I'm afraid I have to agree with RÃ*an, and I'm sorry that you have trouble with our bringing God into the debate. The thread that you've started is closely interconnected with some people's religious beliefs (Like mine), so much that it'd be very, very tough to separate them. Particularly as some of Tolkien's own religious beliefs come across in his work very clearly. Many of my posts here are entirely about the Silmarillion, while others are entirely about Christian beliefs. It's just impossible to separate them for me on a topic as close (or to me identical) as this issue is to Christianity. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-23-2002 at 08:51 PM. |
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11-23-2002, 11:12 PM | #279 |
Elven Warrior
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"God indeed "took responsibility" for the possibility of evil) by "planning" redemption thru Jesus. And God certainly knew that Jesus would "make good" on His promise."
read the entire passage and it was well thought out. kinda deja vu for me because i was a christian for 20 years and i thought the same way. there are a few questions i have regarding the statement above. planning redemption through jesus. there was no need for this in the first place, if there were, then none who sinned could enter heaven b/f jesus came along. we all know that wasnt likely, seeing how abraham(pimped out his wife sara to the pharroah to gain favor and material goods), lot(offered his daughters to the messengers of god for sexual favors) and david(slept and impregnated a married woman, then had her husband murdered and married her afterwards) committed some pretty horrible sins themselves under gods eyes. jesus making ood on his promise. what was the promise?
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
11-24-2002, 12:09 AM | #280 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Admin Note- I understand that the discussion taking place in this thread may relate to comparisons in real life, namely religion. Comparing the god and evil in Tolkien to god and evil in our world is fine, however, I am seeing more chatter about religion then I am seeing about Iluvatar and Morgoth. That then tends to make the thread off topic.
PLEASE keep the discussion on religion to a minimum. A little more Tolkien and a little less religion folks. This has been a good thread. I don't want to have to close it.
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