Bush addresses the world- Pending War - Page 14

Lief Erikson · 03-22-2003, 04:31 AM

You know what, I've encountered that point of view also. No war ever- there always is a better way.

That's actually more of a philosophical question: Which is the greater evil?

A preemptive war could easily be renamed 'preventive war'. It keeps something worse from happening.

We have two choices: One, we can take a naive perspective that humanity is always reasonable and that dictators like Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler are always capable of dealing with.

Two, we can take the perspective that some leaders are simply impossible to handle with in reasonable ways, for they themselves are not reasonable. We can see the evidence for this sometimes being the case in the atrocities that they commit.

I don't believe that anyone here will argue the perspective that everyone is reasonable and every ruthless aggressive dictator can be dealt with in a peaceful way. Thus, I will move on to the second perspective.

If we agree that some leaders are impossible to deal with in a peaceful manner, then we get into the situations of war.

We'll take it for granted that killing is bad. Now suppose we come across this unreasonable leader who wants more for himself. He isn't demanding yet from us but we have strong evidence that he will. And we know that he will not be fully pacified because that is not a part of his nature. Let's say he's building weapons that will decimate hundreds of thousands if employed. These are thousands more than will die if we attack him.

It is plain that the soldier who shoots an enemy in battle isn't automatically tainted and turned evil, so we aren't simply creating evil by waging war. People will die anyway, whether we attack or not. Our information tells us that many more will die if we do not, so we are forced into a simple question. Should hundreds of thousands die or a much smaller number? Naturally, since we assume that killing is bad, we decide that the smaller number should die.

So we do our preemptive assault. Killing being wrong because it destroys a beautiful life, because we have no right to decide that for someone, etc., are good arguments, but only if you assume that every human being is reasonable. If you don't assume that, then it's a balancing act between one evil and a greater evil.

So then we have to look at the evidence. Billions upon billions of people have lived and died before we were born, so there should be plenty of examples if we look at history. There should be plenty of examples if we look at the present, considering the vast numbers of people on this earth.

Instantly examples pop out. Do I need to list some of them?

I realize when I give this argument that it's not directed at anyone in particular. No one has said that war is wrong always and at all costs except one of my email correspondents, and she doesn't want to discuss the Iraq situation more than we have done, so I'm not going to attack her view. But anyway, this is what I see as a logical dissection of the issue of whether war is always wrong or not.

Aeryn · 03-22-2003, 04:37 AM

Hee hee--Lief, I didn't read your post, to long. I think I have symptomatic ADD.

Well, my question to all the Democrats out there screaming "War isn't the answer"

What alternative is there? I've notice that most will how you say "Talk the talk" but won't "walk the walk".

My measley and chewed two cents.

jerseydevil · 03-22-2003, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeryn
Hee hee--Lief, I didn't read your post, to long. I think I have symptomatic ADD.

I read the post Lief

It was very good.

Basically - for Aeryn who is suffering from temporary ADD - he said in the "Reader's Digest" version - "is it better to have a war which will kill a few people or to do nothing and alllow many thousands more to die through inaction?" His feelings are that the end justifies the means in this case.

I should point out that he mentioned other things- but hey - you can't get everything into the Reader's Digest version.

Aeryn · 03-22-2003, 04:55 AM

Hee hee . Love you Jersey--it's the lack of sleep I believe. My eyes are closing on me as we speak, but I fight the urge to sleep. How many "stay up as long as you want without consequence" days are there in a week? (Two if you don't work)

Well--Lief (paraphrased by Jersey) That is an excellent point. Choosing between the lesser of two evils is always smarter than choosing the alternative...other wise it wouldn't be the greater of two evils...would it?*mind hurts, eyes closing*

jerseydevil · 03-22-2003, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeryn
Hee hee . Love you Jersey--it's the lack of sleep I believe. My eyes are closing on me as we speak, but I fight the urge to sleep. How many "stay up as long as you want without consequence" days are there in a week? (Two if you don't work)

Thanks. I wish in some ways I never had to sleep (too much to do - too little time) yet once I'm asleep I hate to wake up (I enjoy dreaming).

man - it's 4:00 here. Didn't realise it.

Aeryn · 03-22-2003, 05:15 AM

Awaiting dawn I am, am I is. *gah--sadly I think I make more sense whilst up late*

Okay--question: What does everyone think about the constant coverage via NBC and several other major networks?

Ignore if this has been discussed...

jerseydevil · 03-22-2003, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeryn
Awaiting dawn I am, am I is. *gah--sadly I think I make more sense whilst up late*

Okay--question: What does everyone think about the constant coverage via NBC and several other major networks?

Ignore if this has been discussed...

I think it's good. I was watching ABC - but now I'm watching CNN. Might switch back to ABC - but it seemed to be mostly repeats right now. Never mind - ABC ended coverage for the night.

I am glad that ABC has been commercial free. It would not be in good taste to have the bombing of Baghdad and then break for a Fulger's Coffee commercial. The networks are losing tons of money though again.

Aeryn · 03-22-2003, 05:27 AM

It feels a little like expoitation to me.

What about the families of the people who died serving?

And MTV I have major problems with. I usually only watch the Big Urban Myth Show, and they didn't have any of it. It's coverage.

But It's biased and propaganda...all democratic views. People dissing Bush and cussing Americans etc. It's like a Natalie Maines fest...gah...

Dúnedain · 03-22-2003, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeryn
Well, my question to all the Democrats out there screaming "War isn't the answer"

*sigh* Stop with all of the assumptions, not all Democrats are peacemongers....

Dúnedain · 03-22-2003, 05:33 AM

I like FoxNews the best, they have broken the most stories first before any other channel from what I've seen so far in the war. They continue to post things other channels aren't, not sure why. Another example of that tonight was that they reported intelligence from the Pentagon said that Saddam was seen being taken out on a stretcher and put into an Ambulance the other night after they bombed that compound.

Anyway, hehe, FoxNews it is for me. If I want to change it up a bit I flip between MSNBC (I've really grown to like Lester Holt ever since the elections) and ABC (Jennings is the only reason)...

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-22-2003, 05:35 AM

I missed Third Rock last night

(night before last, actually). While the War in Iraq is obviously more important, I must admit that selfish ole' me didn't like it.

Speaking of Democratic views, did you see what Julia Roberts said on that link Elven Archer posted:

Quote:

"Republican comes in the dictionary just after reptile and just above repugnant... I looked up Democrat. It's of the people, by the people, for the people."

To think I once liked her!

jerseydevil · 03-22-2003, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeryn
It feels a little like expoitation to me.

Well ABC was having mostly analysis and so forth.

Quote:

What about the families of the people who died serving?

It's hard - but on 9/11 we had almost a week worth of uninterupted coverage. 3,000 people died there - there were A LOT of families who had to watch over and over again the destruction of the Twin Towers and everything else.

I look at this as - it's something we need to know what is going on. If ABC wasn't covering it - then I'd be watching CNN. I'm glad that I have a choice to go to other stations for coverage - instead of relying only on a couple of in depth reporting stations. If ABC wasn't offering continuous coverage - then they'd be limited to sound bites on the evening news and World New Tonight and then a half hour on Nightline.

Quote:

And MTV I have major problems with. I usually only watch the Big Urban Myth Show, and they didn't have any of it. It's coverage.

But It's biased and propaganda...all democratic views. People dissing Bush and cussing Americans etc. It's like a Natalie Maines fest...gah...

MTV should stick to music videos - but they have a political leaning - just like Rolling Stine magazine. Both are vey left (as is most of the entertainment industry) I personally would not get my news from a music channel.

Aeryn · 03-22-2003, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
*sigh* Stop with all of the assumptions, not all Democrats are peacemongers....

I said, and I quote "To all the Democrats out there screaming..."

Meaning those WHO ARE OUT THERE SCREAMING FOR IT!

jerseydevil · 03-22-2003, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I like FoxNews the best, they have broken the most stories first before any other channel from what I've seen so far in the war. They continue to post things other channels aren't, not sure why. Another example of that tonight was that they reported intelligence from the Pentagon said that Saddam was seen being taken out on a stretcher and put into an Ambulance the other night after they bombed that compound.

Anyway, hehe, FoxNews it is for me. If I want to change it up a bit I flip between MSNBC (I've really grown to like Lester Holt ever since the elections) and ABC (Jennings is the only reason)...

I really like ABCNews.

As for Fox - I was going to watch them instead of CNN - but they broke to a commercial. I just can't see watching what is happening during a war and then having to sit through a commercial. It just bothers me. So I switched to CNN. But I might switch to Fox again to see what they're saying. I was watching Fox the other night. I just switch around and see what and how the stations are reporting. Sometimes the reporters on Fox seem a little too "gung-ho" about the war.

jerseydevil · 03-22-2003, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I missed Third Rock last night (night before last, actually). While the War in Iraq is obviously more important, I must admit that selfish ole' me didn't like it.

Especially since Third Rock is in syndication and is all repeats. It'll be on again.

Quote:

Speaking of Democratic views, did you see what Julia Roberts said on that link Elven Archer posted:

To think I once liked her!

Oh - just another Movie star to boycott.
So far I think it's...
Martin Sheen
Sean Penn
Janeane Garafilo (sp and too lazy to look it up)
Richard Gere (Reason i won't go see Chicago, saw it on Broadway anyway)
May boycott Susan Sarandon a fellow New Jerseyan. Khamul pointed out that Janeane Garafilo is also a New Jerseyan.

There are others - just can't remember at the moment. Oh the BIG one - Alec Baldwin. I wish he left the country like he promised.

Dúnedain · 03-22-2003, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I really like ABCNews.

As for Fox - I was going to watch them instead of CNN - but they broke to a commercial. I just can't see watching what is happening during a war and then having to sit through a commercial. It just bothers me. So I switched to CNN. But I might switch to Fox again to see what they're saying. I was watching Fox the other night. I just switch around and see what and how the stations are reporting. Sometimes the reporters on Fox seem a little too "gung-ho" about the war.

No not Fox, FoxNews, they are two separate channels....

FoxNews is commercial free as well...

Dúnedain · 03-22-2003, 05:55 AM

FoxNews is the channel with the O'Reilly factor and such if you don't know what I am talking about...

jerseydevil · 03-22-2003, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
No not Fox, FoxNews, they are two separate channels....

FoxNews is commercial free as well...

I meant FoxNews. I know they're two different channels - just left off the News part.

Right after I turned it to them though - they went to a commercial- so I turned it to CNN.

I just changed to FoxNews to check it out. CNN is in the field in southern Iraq - in the middle of scirmish.

Dúnedain · 03-22-2003, 06:00 AM

Weird, down here FoxNews has been commercial free since the war begun. I've been watching FoxNews the most and haven't seen a commercial yet, that's strange

jerseydevil · 03-22-2003, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Weird, down here FoxNews has been commercial free since the war begun. I've been watching FoxNews the most and haven't seen a commercial yet, that's strange

maybe I just changed it to the wrong channel which happened to be on a commercial and didn't realise it.

I have FoxNews on now - I just thought they were going to go to commercial they said "we'll be right back - don't go anywhere..." - but they were just changing reporters basically. It seemed like they were going to break for a commercial.

03-22-2003, 04:37 AM	#262
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	Hee hee--Lief, I didn't read your post, to long. I think I have symptomatic ADD. Well, my question to all the Democrats out there screaming "War isn't the answer" What alternative is there? I've notice that most will how you say "Talk the talk" but won't "walk the walk". My measley and chewed two cents. __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

03-22-2003, 04:55 AM	#264
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	Hee hee . Love you Jersey--it's the lack of sleep I believe. My eyes are closing on me as we speak, but I fight the urge to sleep. How many "stay up as long as you want without consequence" days are there in a week? (Two if you don't work) Well--Lief (paraphrased by Jersey) That is an excellent point. Choosing between the lesser of two evils is always smarter than choosing the alternative...other wise it wouldn't be the greater of two evils...would it?mind hurts, eyes closing __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

03-22-2003, 05:15 AM	#266
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	Awaiting dawn I am, am I is. gah--sadly I think I make more sense whilst up late Okay--question: What does everyone think about the constant coverage via NBC and several other major networks? Ignore if this has been discussed... __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

03-22-2003, 05:27 AM	#268
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	It feels a little like expoitation to me. What about the families of the people who died serving? And MTV I have major problems with. I usually only watch the Big Urban Myth Show, and they didn't have any of it. It's coverage. But It's biased and propaganda...all democratic views. People dissing Bush and cussing Americans etc. It's like a Natalie Maines fest...gah... __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

03-22-2003, 05:33 AM	#270
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	I like FoxNews the best, they have broken the most stories first before any other channel from what I've seen so far in the war. They continue to post things other channels aren't, not sure why. Another example of that tonight was that they reported intelligence from the Pentagon said that Saddam was seen being taken out on a stretcher and put into an Ambulance the other night after they bombed that compound. Anyway, hehe, FoxNews it is for me. If I want to change it up a bit I flip between MSNBC (I've really grown to like Lester Holt ever since the elections) and ABC (Jennings is the only reason)... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

03-22-2003, 04:31 AM	#261
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	You know what, I've encountered that point of view also. No war ever- there always is a better way. That's actually more of a philosophical question: Which is the greater evil? A preemptive war could easily be renamed 'preventive war'. It keeps something worse from happening. We have two choices: One, we can take a naive perspective that humanity is always reasonable and that dictators like Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler are always capable of dealing with. Two, we can take the perspective that some leaders are simply impossible to handle with in reasonable ways, for they themselves are not reasonable. We can see the evidence for this sometimes being the case in the atrocities that they commit. I don't believe that anyone here will argue the perspective that everyone is reasonable and every ruthless aggressive dictator can be dealt with in a peaceful way. Thus, I will move on to the second perspective. If we agree that some leaders are impossible to deal with in a peaceful manner, then we get into the situations of war. We'll take it for granted that killing is bad. Now suppose we come across this unreasonable leader who wants more for himself. He isn't demanding yet from us but we have strong evidence that he will. And we know that he will not be fully pacified because that is not a part of his nature. Let's say he's building weapons that will decimate hundreds of thousands if employed. These are thousands more than will die if we attack him. It is plain that the soldier who shoots an enemy in battle isn't automatically tainted and turned evil, so we aren't simply creating evil by waging war. People will die anyway, whether we attack or not. Our information tells us that many more will die if we do not, so we are forced into a simple question. Should hundreds of thousands die or a much smaller number? Naturally, since we assume that killing is bad, we decide that the smaller number should die. So we do our preemptive assault. Killing being wrong because it destroys a beautiful life, because we have no right to decide that for someone, etc., are good arguments, but only if you assume that every human being is reasonable. If you don't assume that, then it's a balancing act between one evil and a greater evil. So then we have to look at the evidence. Billions upon billions of people have lived and died before we were born, so there should be plenty of examples if we look at history. There should be plenty of examples if we look at the present, considering the vast numbers of people on this earth. Instantly examples pop out. Do I need to list some of them? I realize when I give this argument that it's not directed at anyone in particular. No one has said that war is wrong always and at all costs except one of my email correspondents, and she doesn't want to discuss the Iraq situation more than we have done, so I'm not going to attack her view. But anyway, this is what I see as a logical dissection of the issue of whether war is always wrong or not.

03-22-2003, 05:55 AM	#277
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	FoxNews is the channel with the O'Reilly factor and such if you don't know what I am talking about... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

03-22-2003, 06:00 AM	#279
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Weird, down here FoxNews has been commercial free since the war begun. I've been watching FoxNews the most and haven't seen a commercial yet, that's strange __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

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