Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

[King of The Istari]

OMG I've just had a brain wave about harry being a horcrux and Harry's possible death

I've just read the last couple of chapters is OOTP again and the prophecy states:
"and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live whilst the other survives"
So if to defeat voldemort harry had to kill himself because he was the final horcrux it would in effect contradict the prophacy, because the prophacy says either must die by the hand of the other which sounds like it means by a wand or as a concuquence of an action of the other, and,
for none can live whilst the other survives sounds like it means one MUST Survive to complete the prophacy, if they were to both die it would almost certainly be included in the prophacy, and would say something like
one must give his life to secure the demise of the other
(which it doesn't)

[Elfmaster XK]

Originally Posted by King of The Istari

OMG I've just had a brain wave about harry being a horcrux and Harry's possible death

I've just read the last couple of chapters is OOTP again and the prophecy states:
"and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live whilst the other survives"
So if to defeat voldemort harry had to kill himself because he was the final horcrux it would in effect contradict the prophacy, because the prophacy says either must die by the hand of the other which sounds like it means by a wand or as a concuquence of an action of the other, and,
for none can live whilst the other survives sounds like it means one MUST Survive to complete the prophacy, if they were to both die it would almost certainly be included in the prophacy, and would say something like
one must give his life to secure the demise of the other
(which it doesn't)

I disagree. If it was one should kill the other and then live I think she would have worded the prophecy differently. This way what she wrote means either harry or voldemort can die at each other's hand as you said.

BUT..either also has this meaning: "2. Each of two; the one and the other; both; -- formerly,
also, each of any number.

His flowing hair In curls on either cheek played.
--Milton."

So it can mean they both die. Or even (it won't happen) that Voldie kills Harry and lives to terrorise the world.

As for the second part. None can live whilst the other survives. That doesn't say one will survive and live. I take this to mean Voldie is surviving, so Harry cannot live. Now for Harry to live V must no longer survive. Likewise for V to survive then Harry must not live. But it doesn't say one WILL survive. Or even imply that. If both died the prophecy would be complete. The one who can destroy the dark lord was chosen and marked, and neither lived while the other survived because neither survived.

I don't want Harry to die. But I think it is possible and makes sense.

[King of The Istari]

Originally Posted by Elfmaster XK

. Now for Harry to live V must no longer survive.

But how can harry die kiling voldemort?
it says for harry to Live voldemort must Die, So I myself read that as like I've said one will win and survive whilst the other loses and dies so either harry kills voldemort and lives or voldemort kills harry and voldemort lives,

[Rían]

just finished reading the thread - am looking forward to getting my copy at the library!

[Lief Erikson]

Huh? You read all the spoilers possible and then read the book??? You're just like my younger brother .

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by Finrod Felagund

I disagree...Remember in OotP, Moody showed Harry the picture of the original order...Dubledore's brother was in that picture...and if I'm not wrong...he does resemble his brother somewhat.

Good point. I'd forgotten that. I suppose it's possible Harry doesn't remember seeing Aberforth in the picture, since he was concentrating on his parents at the time...

[Khamûl]

I agree with you, XK.

Incidentally, is this the picture of Marvolo's ring that's on your UK edition?
http://www.hogwarts-gallery.org/hogw..._uk_detail.jpg

[Elfmaster XK]

Originally Posted by King of The Istari

But how can harry die kiling voldemort?
it says for harry to Live voldemort must Die, So I myself read that as like I've said one will win and survive whilst the other loses and dies so either harry kills voldemort and lives or voldemort kills harry and voldemort lives,

If Harry is a horcrux then he can easily die while killing Voldemort. And yes is says for Harry to live Voldemort must die. But it doesn't say IF Voldemort dies Harry Will stay alive.

The prophecy is ambiguous, and while what you say makes sense, what I say is also not wrong in terms of the prophecy.

I agree with you, XK.

Incidentally, is this the picture of Marvolo's ring that's on your UK edition?
http://www.hogwarts-gallery.org/hog...p_uk_detail.jpg

Thanks Yes it is. Funny, I was under the impression the ring was more square than that. Must just look like it on the book because it's only small. But that is the one.

[King of The Istari]

I've just ad a thought about the deaths in harry potter and the number oh Horcruxes left and I thought this would be intresting

if at each horcrux he could comunicate with one of the people in his life who have died, so sirius helps him with one horcrux, his mother helps with one, his father helps with one and cedric helps with one and then finally somehow Dumbledore helps him in some way defeat voldemort or more likley give Harry the power to defeat him

only a theory but an intresting one, 5 people in harry's life have died and there are 5 pieces of voldemorts soul left to destroy (including voldemort himself)

I repeat this is only a theory!

I spoilered it Just in case someone has been living on the moon and doesn't know who dies in HBP

[Spock]

....just back from my trip to the moon... thanks for doing the spoiler this way, really.

[Elfmaster XK]

Originally Posted by King of The Istari

I've just ad a thought about the deaths in harry potter and the number oh Horcruxes left and I thought this would be intresting



only a theory but an intresting one, 5 people in harry's life have died and there are 5 pieces of voldemorts soul left to destroy (including voldemort himself)

I repeat this is only a theory!

I spoilered it Just in case someone has been living on the moon and doesn't know who dies in HBP

Can you clarify what you mean? I don't understand 'at each horcrux.' And how would they help him? How would they contact him to begin with?

[Nurvingiel]

Spoilers for HBP obviously follow...







I like King of the Istari's theory. I'm not sure how it would work though... maybe something similar to Priori Incantatum? (Though not exactly the same.)

I think by 'each Horcrux', KotI means the five5 remaining Horcruxes Dumbledore theorized still exist.

Harry also needs help from alive, and powerful, wizards - as many as possible! He needs Hermione to help him figure out where the other Horcruxes are, and if there are indeed five left. As much as he wants to keep other people away from danger (as evidenced by his break-up with Ginny), there is no way he can do this by himself.


I also think Snape supported and still supports Dumbledore, and Harry will end up needing his help too. Now that Dumbledore is gone, there is no remaining 'good guy' who knows as much about Voldemort and his activities. The question is... will he be able to find and communicate with Snape? And more difficultly, will they be able to work together?

Personally, I really think Snape needs to grow up and get over himself. Be bitter if you must Snape, but there's much more at stake than a rivalry with a man over 15 years dead. From the memory we saw in OotP, James Potter appears to be a self-centred, bullying git. But as much as Snape (mostly unfairly) despises Harry because of James, he must realize they are both on the same side. He's supposed to be the adult here, it's up to him to take the initiative. It might be too late now though, since Harry is quite sure he saw Snape murder Dumbledore in cold blood.

More about the memory of Snape though... after Lily gets James to put Snape down, Snape calls her a filthy mudblood (or something very mean). I thought that meant he was bigoted, but now we know he called himself the Half-Blood Prince. Now I think that he was angry and lashing out, and wanted to look tough to preserve what remained of his dignity. I don't think he was bigoted now, since he seems to be proud of his Muggle heritage as much as his magical one.

And does anyone else find it ironic that the most Harry ever learned from Snape was from Snape's old textbook, where the lesson was not accompanied by insults and snide remarks? Harry could actually concentrate on Snape's words since he wasn't trying to supress pent-up rage. I think it's also interesting that Hermione compared Harry and Snape's DADA teaching methods. I think those two have more in common than they'd ever care to admit in a billion years.

I also wonder if Harry went back to the Room of Requirement to get the textbook back 'off-screen', similar how he got the Marauders' Map back from Crouch Jr (fake Moody's) office 'off-screen' in Goblet of Fire? I think this time, though, Dumbledore's death pushed everything else out of his mind.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Personally, I really think Snape needs to grow up and get over himself. Be bitter if you must Snape, but there's much more at stake than a rivalry with a man over 15 years dead. From the memory we saw in OotP, James Potter appears to be a self-centred, bullying git. But as much as Snape (mostly unfairly) despises Harry because of James, he must realize they are both on the same side.

Snape has always let his personal dislike for Harry take second place to doing what's necessary for the cause. He protected Harry in book 1. He used Harry's information to save his life again in book 5. He also tried to prevent Harry using the Dark Arts in book 6.

The only time when I have seen Snape let his dislike of Harry supercede his duty is the time when he stopped giving Harry Oclumency lessons.



One of the things I'm happiest about in book 6, is how so many things happened in it that I thought would be reserved for book 7! Dumbledore's death and the battle in the castle were things I thought we'd see at the end of book 7. The break-up with Ginny also seemed like it might be more of a book 7 thing (not that I anticipated it). I was lamenting over the fact that we almost certainly wouldn't get to see anything of Harry outside of Hogwarts, but I WAS WRONG!!! So I am really happy.

[Tessar]

So, after reading the book (got it this afternoon and finished it in about 6 1/2 hours), I have a thought/question--forgive me if it's been asked before:

Why did Dumbledor put Snape in the DA position?

Did he do it in an attempt to get rid of Snape, or was it an attempt to prevent further harm to Dark Arts teachers?

Remember he said that every teacher had left after a year of teaching ever since Voldimort tried to get the job--clearly there was some sort of curse put over the job (that old long-running 'joke'. Who knew it was the truth?).

So did he expect something to happen to Snape, and he wanted to get rid of Snape, or was he hoping that since Snape was a Death Eater, Snape would be protected, and no more D.A. teachers would be hurt or killed from the curse?

[Khamûl]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

More about the memory of Snape though... after Lily gets James to put Snape down, Snape calls her a filthy mudblood (or something very mean). I thought that meant he was bigoted, but now we know he called himself the Half-Blood Prince. Now I think that he was angry and lashing out, and wanted to look tough to preserve what remained of his dignity. I don't think he was bigoted now, since he seems to be proud of his Muggle heritage as much as his magical one.

I heard an interesting theory related to that -- why is that memory Snape's worst memory? The first thought is that it's because he was thoroughly embarassed by James and Sirius. But it seems plausible to me that it's because he called Lily a 'mudblood'. The rest of the theory goes like this: We know from Slughorn that they were both very good in potions. Lily seems like the compassionate type, so it's quite possible that they became friends. Snape developed an unrequited love from this quiet friendship. He did lash out in anger, and if you'll notice, Lily seems surprised. It would also make his hatred for James stronger because he ended up with Lily. I think it's possible to take this a step further. We know that Snape was the one that overheard Trelawney's prophecy to Dumbledore and told the Dark Lord. This led to the murder of James and Lily. Perhaps the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape so much has something to do with Snape feeling partly responsible for Lily's death.

This is purely conjecture, but it seems to be worth consideration to me.

[Nurvingiel]

I think that's an excellent theory Khamul. I hope Rowling expands on this on book 7.

I completely agree, except I don't necessarily think Snape was romantically in love with Lily. I think his comment would have severely damaged their friendship, which was probably very special to him. (If the theory is true.)

One issue with the theory, is why the completely hatred for Harry? If Snape liked Lily, as a friend or otherwise, he must realize that Harry is 50% Lily's. I mean, I know wizards don't learn biology, but jeez...

Snape's hatred of Harry is almost completely irrational, and not fully explained. Maybe Harry, who looks like his father but with his mother's eyes, reminds Snape of everything he regrets about Lily, and everything he hates about James. Plus, as you pointed out, he's from a union that must have tortured him. (Assuming your theory is true, of course.)

Originally Posted by Tessar

Why did Dumbledor put Snape in the DA position?

Good question. I think that Snape is completely trustworthy, and Dumbledore needed a competent, non-disguised Death Eater to teach DADA. Every passing year, it becomes more and more crucial that they get a decent teacher in the subject. Umbridge's appointment showed that Dumbledore had, in fact, lost the total control of the school, which he had before.

Obviously, Dumbledore was too busy to jump in and teach the subject himself. But why did he hire Lockhart in Harry's second year? I'm sure he knew at the outset that Lockhart was a fraud. His comment at the end of the book, "Impaled on your own sword Gilderoy?" drives this home. What possible good did this appointment accomplish aside from making everyone buy a load of expensive coaster-- I mean Lockhart's books, and giving Hermione the chance to practice a Freezing Charm? He might has well have discontinued the class.
I felt bad for Harry when his best and favourite class was ruined, but at the same time, it's about friggin time they had a decent prof after Proffessor Lupin got sacked.

I wish there had been more page time for Snape's and Harry's interactions in the class, but I suppose it would have been more of the usual.

Speaking of Lupin, I wish he had gotten more page time too! Imagine having to spy on the werewolves Voldemort had recruited, including the awful and loathesome Fenrir Greyback!

Last comment... Fenrir and Lupin (100% of named werewolves in the series) both have wolfish names. Imagine Remus's parents, surprised and saddened that their young son, of all the people in the world, would be bitten by a werewolf. Then they realized their last name was 'Lupin' - all Greyback had to do was look then up in the phone book.
And Fenrir... I wonder how his parents chose that name. "Let's give him a strong name... like... Fenrir! Yes, we could name our son after the huge wolf that devours Ragnorak at the end of the world(1). Now son, don't grow up to be a lunatic werewolf or anything..."
I often enjoy Rowling's name symbology, like Weasley. Lupin always seemed a bit much to me (cuz he's, duuuh, a werewolf), but add Fenrir (which admittedly, I only found out about later) and worst of all, Sanguini for the only vampire, and I think she was bludgeoning us a bit too hard in the last book. Sanguini, aaaaaa! I'll hazard to say that's the worst name ever.
I still love the books though, of course.

(1) Please forgive my abuse of Norse mythology in getting that a bit wrong.

[Elfmaster XK]

I think by 'each Horcrux', KotI means the five5 remaining Horcruxes Dumbledore theorized still exist.

First of all if there are any letters missing from words in this post it's because my keyboard doesn't work properly anymore! Too much writing.

No, I meant what did he mean by at each horcrux. Forgive me if I'm being pedantic, but I actually think that's important. Did he mean when they find it, and are in the place it was left? I'm sure the enchantments would stop any magic being done to destroy it there. But once they have it out then obviusly they are destroy-able.

Personally I doubt this theory, because once they're dead I believe they can't help Harry in any way other than to offer advice. I'm not sure what appened in Priori Incantatum. I don't think the ghosts actually did anything to the DE's, other than distract them so Harry ad an opportunity. But I could be mistaken. I'll have to re-read GoF. But it isn't an impossible theory.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by azalea

Here are some more of my thoughts about Snape/ Dumbledore:

I agree with your theory, but I do think that DD did know about the Vow: Harry had overheard about it and it had been reported to DD. If Snape's wouldn't have told DD before about the Vow the trust would have necessary had an end, so I think that he had told him from the begining.

One point I want to discuss is the air of vindictiveness with which the book ends. I don't think that JKR is going to justify murdering for vengeance in the last book, so I expect that the Snape thing will change its course in the last book.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

R.A.B = Regulus Black.

The locket was the horcrux - but R.A.B (most likely Regulus Black) had already taken it and replaced it with the fake with the note.

In book 5 didn't Harry find a locket at 12 Grimmauld Place? Could be it.

Yeah, and that could be the reason for that little subplot in book 6 of Mundungus...

[Finrod Felagund]

After all my questioning...I have found the answer...

Aberforth Dumbledore IS the barkeep at the Hog's Head!

No joke!

Aberforth Dumbledore


My mystery is solved.