Theism

[markedel]

That leads to the lively debate-does it matter if what is described in the bible actually happened? I'd say not really, at least not in the sense that every detail or event had to happen exactly as described. The general outline of events probably happened in some fashion or another.

[markedel]

If you like. But religions are very well constructed myths.

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by markedel
If you like. But religions are very well constructed myths.

i can agree with that with no qualms

[Wayfarer]

Anduril:

God is everywhere.

He is 'in' our universe in the manner that he created it and everything within it is under his control.
But he is not constrained to this universe, or heaven, or any other.

One could say that our self existant cause (god or nature) is everywhere. If it is nature, then you cannot go anywhere and be outside of it. If it is God, you cannot go anywhere and seperate yourself from him.

Likewise, God is not in time, because time is a result of God. He sees present, past, and future all at once. I guess we could call it 'Omnitemporal'.

As far as justice and mercy... you're again basing your arguement on a flawed view of christian theology.

God is perfectly just, in that he holds everyone to the same standard.
He is also perfectly merciful, in that anyone who asks will be allowed to pass.

There's no contradiction at all, once you know what's going on.

[Twilight]

I really missed you Wayfarer. Your posts describe things so well.

[Wayfarer]

Ya know, April Fool's day was yesterday... ]: )

Honestly... it's good to be missed.

[Andúril]

Justice is law tempered with mercy.

Is it? I was of the obviously mistaken understanding that justice is:

The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.

Oh well.

Looking at your definition, if mercy was a part of justice, then the justice would not be just, it would be mercy, or a merciful judgement.

A definition of Just: Properly due or merited.
Another one: Implying justice dictated by reason, conscience, and a natural sense of what is fair to all
Yet another one: Free from favoritism or self-interest or bias or deception; or conforming with established standards or rules

It seems that justice, as used in the bible, is to be interpreted differently to the way we now use it.

Thus if a man walks into a room with a knife, and walks out covered in blood he would not be executed for murder unless the above conditions were fulfilled

He still committed the murder; in my opinion this is a silly law. Silly. Are you surprised that the majority of the world's population does not work like that?

This is law and mercy combined and from that justice.

Strange type of justice that one. But then again, it all comes down to what is defined as fair or equal, which leads to the existence of a multitude of different laws all over the world.

God is perfectly just, in that he holds everyone to the same standard.
He is also perfectly merciful, in that anyone who asks will be allowed to pass.

Look at it from an unbiased point of view. There are three people : (x), (y), and (z). Person (x) is the observer, he is observing persons (y) and (z). Person (y) has belief (1), while person (z) has belief (2). When person (x) observes the judgement he sees unequal treatment of (y) and (z), person (y) receiving mercy, while person (z) received no mercy.

For all those who are reading this, observe my willingness to accept error:

If person (y) has belief (1), then all offenses are discarded. It is this state of sinlessness that I did not take note of. Therefore, if the judge passes judgement on (y), the judgement will appear merciful to (x), but it is not merciful, because (y) does not deserve the same judgement as (z).

In other words, to my knowledge, the argument of all-justness vs all-mercifulness fails. Nevertheless, I will continue to ponder it...

[Andúril]

God is everywhere.

If that is correct, then my body is part of God, God fills the space of Hell, and if souls are three-dimensional, all souls, whether Hell or Heaven-bound, are a part of God, including Satan.

He is 'in' our universe in the manner that he created it and everything within it is under his control

Everything, that is, except our free will, right?

If it is God, you cannot go anywhere and seperate yourself from him.

Anywhere, that is, except Hell. Hell is the absence of God, is it not?

Likewise, God is not in time, because time is a result of God.

Once again, would I be stating a logical fallacy if I was to say that God is not in our time, because our time exists only in our universe, but he is in Heaven, with its own time?

I don't know. I just think this whole thing about God taking up his spiritual space, as well as the space around him, such as at his "throne" in Heaven, absurd.

[Andúril]

God is perfectly just, in that he holds everyone to the same standard.
He is also perfectly merciful, in that anyone who asks will be allowed to pass.

Could you back this up with quotes from the bible, please?

[markedel]

Okay justice:

Think of it this way there are basically two ways of looking at the world, the prism of mercy and the prism of law. One prism would be considered traditional, the other modernist. Everyone generally ends up somewhere on either side of this split. God and the Torah are supposed place you in the middle. That is "Tzedek" justice.

Satan:

Satan is the extreme side of mercy. (Extremes in Judaism are generally looked down upon). If one is too merciful upon someone you discard the bounds of law. The best example of today would be Osama bin Laden. He loves God so much (and therefore by extension everyone else) that he is willing, indeed he thinks it's proper, to commit terrible crimes that break anyone's standard of law. But he believes this is out of kindness.

Judaism doesn't really have a concrete hell concept, the afterlife (in the kind of detail Christians enjoy) never was concieved while the bare outlines are talmudic.

Judaism doesn't have any notion of original, at least not in the sense that man is tainted at birth. God forgives sins against God if you are willing to repent. For sins against humans you have to seek personal forgiveness through repentance.

[Nariel Starfire]

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If that is correct, then my body is part of God, God fills the space of Hell, and if souls are three-dimensional, all souls, whether Hell or Heaven-bound, are a part of God, including Satan.
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-I think you are deifying humanity. Your body is not a part of God, but God exists within you, but not literally inside you. He transends physical being.

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Everything, that is, except our free will, right?
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-That's a highly controversial issue within the Church. Some denominations (the Calvinists) believe that there is no such thing as Free Will and that God is directly in charge of every decision we make. This is purely subject to your opinion. I am still trying to figure out what I believe on this issue. It requires deep study.

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Anywhere, that is, except Hell. Hell is the absence of God, is it not?
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-No, Hell is not the absence of God. In fact, God is in charge of Hell. God does exist in Hell. Contrary to popular opinion, Satan is not in charge of Hell; he is the main prisoner.

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Once again, would I be stating a logical fallacy if I was to say that God is not in our time, because our time exists only in our universe, but he is in Heaven, with its own time?
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-No. Time does not exist in heaven. This is tough even for me to understand, but God exists in all time frames at the same time. He exists in all dimensions, and He is everywhere at once. God is in our time, but he is not restrained by it.

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I don't know. I just think this whole thing about God taking up his spiritual space, as well as the space around him, such as at his "throne" in Heaven, absurd.
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-I don't understand what exactly you're saying here, but God doesn't take up space...

[Nariel Starfire]

Also, I'll get the Bible quotes for that soon, anduril

[BeardofPants]

His disciples asked him what this parable meant. He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "`though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

This is Luke 8:9-10. Secrecy theme. That jesus deliberately spoke in parables so that the masses would not understand his teachings. Sounds like a gentlemens club to me. Exclusive membership only.

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


This is Luke 8:9-10. Secrecy theme. That jesus deliberately spoke in parables so that the masses would not understand his teachings. Sounds like a gentlemens club to me. Exclusive membership only.

That's to protect themselves during that time from all being hunted down.

[Andúril]

A merciful judgement is to treat an offender with less severity than he she/deserves.

A merciful being is one that threats some offenders with less severity than they deserve.

An all-merciful being is one that treats all offenders with less severity than they deserve.

Non-christians are treated with exactly the severity they deserve.
Non-christians are part of all people.

Thus God is not all-merciful, because some people are treated with less severity than they deserve, and not all.

[Andúril]

-I think you are deifying humanity. Your body is not a part of God, but God exists within you, but not literally inside you. He transends physical being.

God is claimed as being everywhere. If my body does not take up part of him, he is noteverywhere. If he transcends the physical realm, then a part of him is physical.

-No, Hell is not the absence of God. In fact, God is in charge of Hell. God does exist in Hell. Contrary to popular opinion, Satan is not in charge of Hell; he is the main prisoner.

What do you mean by Satan being the main prisoner?

No. Time does not exist in heaven. This is tough even for me to understand, but God exists in all time frames at the same time. He exists in all dimensions, and He is everywhere at once. God is in our time, but he is not restrained by it.

Revelations 19:1:

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our GodAnd after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God

How could a scenario like that exist if there is no time? How about verse 4:

And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Throne. Three-dimensional object. Implying space (spatial dimensions).

...fell. Action. Change of state, from non-fallen to fallen. Implying time.

Does any theist here know of a place that exists that is [/i]neither/i] Heaven, nor our universe, nor Hell?

[Nariel Starfire]

In Revelation 19:1 there is no mention of time. So I don't know where you draw the connection. As for verse 4,
I did not say there was no matter in heaven (although I do not belive there is). Heaven does not exist in our 4-dimensional world.

Also, the Throne may be simply a place. I must remind you that most of Revelation is symbolic. There may not actually be a throne in Heaven, that may just have been the way John the Apostle's mortal mind interpreted what he saw. Also, the reference to falling may have been this as well. Please give me a day or two to do some indepth research regarding this.

As for your last question, here you go:
While on the cross, Christ mentioned "Paradise" which is defined as basically a waiting room before you get to heaven. Old Testament saints went there after they died and then were taken to heaven when Christ descended into Hell and took the keys of death.
Also, the Roman Catholic church believes in "Purgatory" which is basically a toned-down Hell where you can work off your sins before you go to heaven.

By Satan being the main prisoner, I mean that he is not in charge of Hell (though he wants you to believe he is). Hell was, in fact, created for him, to punish him. The only reason people are going to Hell is because he is trying to take as many of them with him as he can while he has the chance. God is basically the Warden of Hell.

[afro-elf]

i think I'm gonna be leaving these threads

its taking me away for things i need to attend to

the latter part of my signature is my final thought on the subject

[afro-elf]

jeresy devil suggested that i put the dogma quote here encase I change it later

) Having belief isn’t good?
B) I think it is better to have ideas.


You can change an idea. A belief is trickier.
Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to ideas permit this.


Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can’t generate.
Life becomes stagnant.



Debate that is the only way people reaffirm that they are alive-by debating. In all its forms.


We spend our whole lives debating: we fight about who is right who is wrong, we fight ourselves, we fight each other, we death, we fight over beliefs.



People say life is a struggle. It is no. It is about living….belief is a dangerous thing. People die for it and people kill for it

[Andúril]

In Revelation 19:1 there is no mention of time. So I don't know where you draw the connection

The word time does not need to be mentioned to show evidence of it. There is a linear sequence of events in that verse:

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God

Words were spoken. First Alleluia, then Salvation, then and, etc. A linear sequence of events. The state of heaven was changing continuously: Before the word Salvation was spoken, what happened? The word Alleluia was spoken. And after that? The word Salvation was spoken. Clearly, there is a state of change. There is a before and after. These are concepts of time.

As for verse 4, I did not say there was no matter in heaven (although I do not belive there is). Heaven does not exist in our 4-dimensional world.

God was sitting on a throne. A throne is a three-dimensional object. An object that sustained God's gravity, his divine downward force. It is ludicrous to say that there is no space in Heaven, when the bible clearly indicates that there is.

If Heaven existed, it would not exist in our universe. That is what I have been saying. But do you have any biblical quotes that can back up your claims?

Also, the Throne may be simply a place. I must remind you that most of Revelation is symbolic. There may not actually be a throne in Heaven, that may just have been the way John the Apostle's mortal mind interpreted what he saw. Also, the reference to falling may have been this as well. Please give me a day or two to do some indepth research regarding this.

What is a place? A place is something that exists in space.

Isn't the bible innerrant? If John the Apostle misinterpreted what he saw, then God is non-omnipotent, because he could not cause John the Apostle to interpret what he saw correctly, and thus by definition does not exist.

By the same token, how can the Christian now know which passages are misinterpretations of what the authors saw? Will the Christian now pick and choose amongst the chapters that are problematic? If there is any instance of misinterpretation by biblical authors, this shows that God is non-omnipotent, and that the Bible is incohesive.

While on the cross, Christ mentioned "Paradise" which is defined as basically a waiting room before you get to heaven. Old Testament saints went there after they died and then were taken to heaven when Christ descended into Hell and took the keys of death.

A waiting place? That implies time. Can somebody wait if there is no time? No. The old testament saints were taken to Heaven only when Christ descended into Hell, not before. Therefore, they had to wait hundreds of years. Time.

Also, the Roman Catholic church believes in "Purgatory" which is basically a toned-down Hell where you can work off your sins before you go to heaven.

Working off sins takes time.

Out of all these places, where do you think God is right now? More importantly, where is his personality?

By Satan being the main prisoner, I mean that he is not in charge of Hell (though he wants you to believe he is). Hell was, in fact, created for him, to punish him.

Why did God create Satan?